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Rick Neely
color enhancement software
on Dec 31, 2009 at 2:08:40 pm

Hey guys,

Happy New year! quick question that may NOT be a an FCP one, but since I'm editing on that platform, it would be most convenient. I have telecined some vintage faded 16mm film and obviously the pigments have worn to the point that it's mostly 'red'looking. According to wikipedia--

"Over a period of many decades, the pigments in color 16 mm film slowly degrade and become transparent. The pigments degrade at different rates with red being the longest-lasting. This inevitably results in color film that now appears to be reddish, with few other colors.

In the process of digitizing old film into a modern digital movie format, the faded film can sometimes be restored to full color with the use of DIGITAL COLOR ENHANCEMENT METHODS that amplify the faded pigment colors, but do not amplify the red pigments."

It is this last statement that I ask all of you, do you know any good software plugins, color correction tutorials, or software (mac, please) that would perform this enhancement need? Money's kinda tight so anything high-end is probably out of the question for me, but suggestions are welcome. thanks in advance.

Rick



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Bjarki Gudjonsson
Re: color enhancement software
on Dec 31, 2009 at 2:22:02 pm

Have you tried working with it in Color? What format do you have it in?

Regards,
Bjarki


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Rick Neely
Re: color enhancement software
on Dec 31, 2009 at 2:42:39 pm

Haven't upgraded to Color yet,

Currently, it's in standard DV or DV50. Is there a good tutorial for doing this?

thanks.

rick



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walter biscardi
Re: color enhancement software
on Dec 31, 2009 at 2:48:13 pm

[Rick Neely] "Currently, it's in standard DV or DV50. Is there a good tutorial for doing this?"

Format doesn't matter. You just use the color enhancement to bring out the colors. In FCP you have the 3 Way Color Correction tool. You can purchase Colorista from Red Giant which is an enhanced version of the 3 Way CC.

Or just use Color which is free.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
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Bouke Vahl
Re: color enhancement software
on Dec 31, 2009 at 3:01:45 pm

[walter biscardi] "
Format doesn't matter."


Hmm.
Since DV has half the color resolution of DV50, and the color is weak already, i would say it makes a HUGE difference to use a 422 codec, not?



Bouke

http://www.videotoolshed.com/
smart tools for video pro's


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walter biscardi
Re: color enhancement software
on Dec 31, 2009 at 3:20:49 pm

[Bouke Vahl] "Hmm.
Since DV has half the color resolution of DV50, and the color is weak already, i would say it makes a HUGE difference to use a 422 codec, not?"


I mean, for color enhancement software, it doesn't matter what the format is in terms of that.

ProRes or any other 422 codec is better for color enhancement only if you're going to stay in an uncompressed format for mastering. If you're going back to DV tape, then no, stay in DV.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
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Bouke Vahl
Re: color enhancement software
on Dec 31, 2009 at 3:31:43 pm

[walter biscardi] "
ProRes or any other 422 codec is better for color enhancement only if you're going to stay in an uncompressed format for mastering. If you're going back to DV tape, then no, stay in DV."


Walter,
I respectfully disagree.
Few reasons:
Probably every project like this ends up on DVD as well.
DV to MpegII is not as good as from a 422 codec.
And having high quality stuff to start with will always yield a better end result.
But i'm about to start drinking my way into the new year and do not feel we're going to find consensus this year.

So a happy 2010!



Bouke

http://www.videotoolshed.com/
smart tools for video pro's


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walter biscardi
Re: color enhancement software
on Dec 31, 2009 at 3:42:01 pm

[Bouke Vahl] "Probably every project like this ends up on DVD as well.
DV to MpegII is not as good as from a 422 codec."


That's a big assumption to make. We rarely create a DVD from a project except for a client review. Most of our projects are mastered to tape.

If you have DV project that is going to mastered back to DV or DVCAM tape, you gain nothing going to ProRes and in fact you add another layer of 5:1 DV compression when you go to tape so you end up with a more highly compressed image than if you had stayed in a DV timeline.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
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HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

"Foul Water, Fiery Serpent" now in Post.

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Bjarki Gudjonsson
Re: color enhancement software
on Jan 3, 2010 at 7:03:55 pm

[walter biscardi] "If you have DV project that is going to mastered back to DV or DVCAM tape, you gain nothing going to ProRes and in fact you add another layer of 5:1 DV compression when you go to tape so you end up with a more highly compressed image than if you had stayed in a DV timeline. "

That's just not true. If had been shot originally in DV, then fine, but the guy has 16mm film scans. Film will always have the most available information. From there on, you'll always want to keep the highest possible quality in your workflow, no matter what your output is.

Generally, I think there are a lot of young people in the business who don't care about formats or quality, but the fact is that those of us that edited tape-to-tape and had to worry about generation degredation, know better.

DV will have no additional information in Color. It won't give you any hidden higlight/shadow detail, and even for this gentleman is doing, will give you minimum color information to work with. Might as well use the 3-way Color Corrector in Final Cut (almost).

ProRes scans will give a lot more information, although DPX would be best.

B.


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walter biscardi
Re: color enhancement software
on Jan 3, 2010 at 7:32:44 pm

[Bjarki Gudjonsson] "That's just not true."

It's not true that if you take DV material, ingest it and color enhance in ProRes then lay back to DV or DVCAM tape you do not add another layer of 5:1 compression? You would have to feed ProRes back to the VTR via a video input, S-Video/Composite/Component.

Explain to me how the DV / DVCAM VTR does not add another layer of 5:1 DV compression to material that is being fed back via a video input.


[Bjarki Gudjonsson] "but the guy has 16mm film scans."

Which if we go back to his follow-up post are in in DV / DV 50 format:

Currently, it's in standard DV or DV50. Is there a good tutorial for doing this?

I am using DV50 and could render via 422 codec, but the final output is to DVCam so I'm not to worried about dealing with DV codec.


So given all this information, there is zero to be gained by going to ProRes or even Uncompressed and then adding another layer of 5:1 compression to be added when you take that ProRes back to DVCAM.


[Bjarki Gudjonsson] "Generally, I think there are a lot of young people in the business who don't care about formats or quality, but the fact is that those of us that edited tape-to-tape and had to worry about generation degredation, know better."

Precisely. When I started at CNN it was all BetaSP / 3/4" and 1" deck to deck or CMX. Avid was just coming on line about the time I left and then we got into Media 100.

So using your argument, you're adding a multi-generational loss by going to ProRes or any other format other than DV to this person's issue.

DV tape to ProRes / Uncompressed back to DVCAM adds another full 5:1 compression on the way back to tape. The fact that he's starting with 16mm scans is moot since the material is already on DV tape.



Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author.
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Biscardi Creative Media

"Foul Water, Fiery Serpent" now in Post.

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cowcowcowcowcow
David Roth Weiss
Re: color enhancement software
on Jan 3, 2010 at 11:31:15 pm

[Bjarki Gudjonsson] "DV will have no additional information in Color. It won't give you any hidden higlight/shadow detail, and even for this gentleman is doing, will give you minimum color information to work with. Might as well use the 3-way Color Corrector in Final Cut (almost). "

The biggest problem throughout this thread is that Rick began it with ambiguity, stating "it's either in DV or DV50," as if the two codecs were the same, and interchangeable. As you and Walter both know, the two codecs operate in different color space, and are thus as different as night as and day. Only in his final post does Rick become definitive and state that the telecined material is in fact DV50.

So, there was an apples to oranges comparison built-in to this thread from the get go. However, beyond that, where you and Walter disagree, is simply that you, Bjarki, argue that it's better to grade in 4:2:2 color space whether or not the final master is will be output to 4:1:1 DV -- meanwhile Walter argues that it makes little difference what color space you work in for the CC if you are ultimately outputting to DV in 4:1:1.

I would tend to agree with you in this case Bjarki, because the important factor in this discussion is that the original telecined video is already in 4:2:2 color space, and thus CCing in 4:2:2 color space does in fact offer several advantages, even if it will ultimately mastered to DV in 4:1:1 color space.

1) CCing in 4:2:2 color space is easier, faster, and the quality is better, because of its greater latitude.

2) Outputting to 4:1:1 tape from the better 4:2:2 digital master has advantages as well even after compression, primarily due to the phenomenon of super-sampling, which yields more accurate interpolation of colors when sampled from a source with greater dynamic range.

3) Finally, CCing in 4:2:2 color space allows you to archive a 4:2:2 digital master, which is far superior for additional editing and/or subsequent repurposing.


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Bjarki Gudjonsson
Re: color enhancement software
on Jan 4, 2010 at 5:03:33 pm

That's pretty much what I'm trying to say. Thanks, David. I agree with you too, Walter, but the point you made in the fourth post of this thead is that when Rick says he has it in DV or DV50 you maintain that format doesn't matter, which you know as well as I do isn't true.

I did a project a year ago dealing with old film scans. I got the raw material on DV compressed QuickTimes and the producer wanted to squeeze more out of the footage. We went back and got uncompressed scans. It was a 3 minute historical ident for a shipping company, and I was surprised to see little nuances that I could tweak with those scans as opposed to the DV converted material.

My point here is, that you should try to keep your material at the best quality throughout your workflow. As soon as you comprimise, anything done after that point will be limited because of it.

I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

B.


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walter biscardi
Re: color enhancement software
on Jan 4, 2010 at 5:10:15 pm

[Bjarki Gudjonsson] "Walter, but the point you made in the fourth post of this thead is that when Rick says he has it in DV or DV50 you maintain that format doesn't matter, which you know as well as I do isn't true."

I guess I'll explain it again. When I said "the format doesn't matter" I meant in terms of which Color Correction Software you use.

As in, if you use DV, or DV50, or HD, or MPEG-2 or whatever, the format does not dictate the Color Correction software you use.

I hope that's clear for everyone now.

As for the workflow in this project, I still say stay in DV since the final output of his project is DVCAM. Best to stay in that format all the way through so you know exactly what your master is going to look like before you finish.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

"Foul Water, Fiery Serpent" now in Post.

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Bjarki Gudjonsson
Re: color enhancement software
on Jan 4, 2010 at 8:32:12 pm

Then we'll agree to disagree.


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walter biscardi
Re: color enhancement software
on Dec 31, 2009 at 2:43:31 pm

Apple Color is the former $25,000 Final Touch 2k software. It's about as good a color enhancement software you can get on the market, especially since it's included in the Final Cut Studio package.

We have a forum here on the Cow, Tutorials here on the Cow and I have an introductory DVD to get you started in Color also sold here on the Cow. Link is in my signature.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

"Foul Water, Fiery Serpent" now in Post.

Creative Cow Forum Host:
Apple Final Cut Pro, Apple Motion, Apple Color, AJA Kona, Business & Marketing, Maxx Digital.

Blog!

Twitter!


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Rick Neely
Re: color enhancement software
on Dec 31, 2009 at 3:19:11 pm

thank you for the help guys,

I've ordered the FCS3 upgrade and will give Color a shot. I don't think my client is all that adamant on the color correction. I think they are just thrilled the the film hadn't broken up when run thru my system. It actually went very smooth, but I do get a fair share of these 'reddish' looking films and wanted to see how I can improve.

I am using DV50 and could render via 422 codec, but the final output is to DVCam so I'm not to worried about dealing with DV codec.

Happy New Year!

Rick



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Kevin Monahan
Re: color enhancement software
on Dec 31, 2009 at 6:17:23 pm

It's not called FCS3, but we know what you mean. Good luck. ;-)

Kevin Monahan
60 Blu-ray Templates for Final Cut Studio 2009
http://www.fcpworld.com
Author - Motion Graphics and Effects in Final Cut Pro


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