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Victor Perez
Simple Archiving to Blu-Ray?
on Nov 29, 2009 at 2:24:07 pm

I am looking into purchasing an internal Blu-Ray reader/writer for my MacPro running Final Cut Studio 3 on Leopard for the purpose of archiving finished project & media files. My question is, would I still need a program like Toast just to backup a programs .fcp, .mov, .aif, etc... files onto a blu-ray disc, or can it be done just by dragging the files onto the blu-ray disc to burn.

Thanks in advance,

Victor
http://www.editvictor.com


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walter biscardi
Re: Simple Archiving to Blu-Ray?
on Nov 29, 2009 at 2:26:14 pm

You should be able to just drag your materials onto the disc like you would with a CD or DVD. I just find that Toast is a much cleaner program than just dragging and dropping like that. But no, you don't absolutely need it.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

"Foul Water, Fiery Serpent" now in Post.

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Victor Perez
Re: Simple Archiving to Blu-Ray?
on Nov 29, 2009 at 2:40:33 pm

Thanks Walter,

Will look more seriously into Toast. With the cost of Blu-Ray sharply down from just 6 months ago, its still a great deal. Hope you had a great Thanksgiving.

thanks again,

Victor
http://www.editvictor.com


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walter biscardi
Re: Simple Archiving to Blu-Ray?
on Nov 29, 2009 at 2:47:16 pm

I used to do the blu-ray archive thing for a little while but with the incredibly cheap prices of 1 and 2TB drives these days, we just archive to raw drives now using the WiebeTech RTX200 unit. In face I'm going to upgrade to the 400 unit so we can run 4 drives at a time and back up entire large projects, media and all.

Just so much cheaper in the long run and then I don't have to worry about having a bluray drive around. All I need is a drive chassis and connect it to any computer.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

"Foul Water, Fiery Serpent" now in Post.

Creative Cow Forum Host:
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Victor Perez
Re: Simple Archiving to Blu-Ray?
on Nov 29, 2009 at 3:09:57 pm

I also backup everything to an external HD during post (just in case of a total raid failure) and then when a project is done I back it up to my archival HDs. Currently I am looking at Blu-Ray as a secondary final backup. It just helps me sleep better knowing I have 2 sources of an archived project. Thats just me. Of course its a little extra work to update the backups if/when the project gets revised, but I can deal with that. At work we use a Quantum LTO for backup, but thats a bit much for my personal needs. Although we have never had a problem with the Quantum. Its been solid for the 2 years its been in use.

Victor
http://www.editvictor.com


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Rafael Amador
Re: Simple Archiving to Blu-Ray?
on Nov 29, 2009 at 2:45:06 pm

yeah. I guess you don't need Toast.
However if you purchase a BR recorder is possible that Toast comes as a freebee.
It's happens with LaCie.
Victor, make sure they don't sell you any old model. Now they can write/read 8x.
You fill a 50GBs BR disk in some 20 minutes.
rafael


http://www.nagavideo.com


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Victor Perez
Re: Simple Archiving to Blu-Ray?
on Nov 29, 2009 at 2:53:44 pm

Thanks Rafael,

I am looking at some player/burners from Pioneer (up to 12x Blu-ray burn) ) and LG (8x Blu-ray burn). The prices seem great at under $260 each. Toast would be a bit more, but still looking around for the best deal.

Thanks again,

Victor
http://www.editvictor.com


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Rafael Amador
Re: Simple Archiving to Blu-Ray?
on Nov 29, 2009 at 3:13:11 pm

Hi Victor,
As I said when I bought the laCie (almost Two years ago) Toast 7 comes included. Not sure if they still giving it but is very possible. But toasting Data BR is the simplest operation. I guess you can do it with the "Burn Disc" function in Mac OSX.
The LaCie runs at 8x. Where I bough mine they were only 2x. Slow but I don't archive that much. I do it with my old G5 while I work in my MBP. No need to get a faster one having this.

[walter biscardi] "Just so much cheaper in the long run and then I don't have to worry about having a bluray drive around. All I need is a drive chassis and connect it to any computer. "
Yes Walter, but sooner than later, I think, all the computers will be able to read BR.
Normally I use BR to archive rushes. HD's of course have advantages. Is easier just to drop everything inside. With BR, you have to organize more the media, calculate the data you put, in, try to fill the discs as much as possible etc. But i like to keep the project separated and that is easier with the BR.

I'n not too long we will arrive to some kind of solid state memory without any kind of mobile parts and affordable. For archiving I don't see necessary too high data rate. With the speed that are reaching CF, SDHC or similar cards, would be enough.
At the moment still being a complicated decision.
rafael



http://www.nagavideo.com


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Greg Ondera
Re: Simple Archiving to Blu-Ray?
on Nov 29, 2009 at 4:56:46 pm

Are any of you concerned about getting a scratch on your archived Blue-Ray footage? I'm a little nervous about that.

The Quantum LTO seems the best archiving means these days, but I agree it is pricey. My understanding is that the LTO tapes will last for 50 years and provide one of the least expensive archiving means over the years as well. Does this sound right to you guys?

I'm very much considering getting one of those Wiebtech RTX-400QRs because I like the idea of having all those Firewire ports in the back of it as well as the e-Sata port. I would go G-Tech because of the reliability reputation but I want those ports for my laptop. Have any of you heard any contrary reports about the reliability of these drives?

Greg Ondera
http://www.Plexus.tv
http://www.SurgeonToday.org


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walter biscardi
Re: Simple Archiving to Blu-Ray?
on Nov 29, 2009 at 5:01:54 pm

[Greg Ondera] "Have any of you heard any contrary reports about the reliability of these drives?"

With the WeibeTech there are no drives. It's just a chassis. At least that's the way I purchase them. Then I pick up either Western Digital or Hitatchi drives at my local Fry's and Best Buy.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

"Foul Water, Fiery Serpent" now in Post.

Creative Cow Forum Host:
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Blog!

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Greg Ondera
Re: Simple Archiving to Blu-Ray?
on Nov 29, 2009 at 5:42:01 pm

Ah! I didn't think that through.

Greg Ondera
http://www.Plexus.tv
http://www.SurgeonToday.org


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Rafael Amador
Re: Simple Archiving to Blu-Ray?
on Nov 29, 2009 at 6:06:53 pm

[Greg Ondera] "Are any of you concerned about getting a scratch on your archived Blue-Ray footage? I'm a little nervous about that. "
Always Greg, but believe me a BR disk drops from two meters high, and you can be unlucky and the disk get damaged.
But if a HD falls from one meter you must be very very lucky for your HD to work again.
Another thing is that if you lose a BR you may lose 50GBs stuff. With the HD..
rafael
PS: BTW I make two copies of the what I consider really valuable. Prices keep dropping.



http://www.nagavideo.com


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Mark Suszko
Re: Simple Archiving to Blu-Ray?
on Nov 29, 2009 at 8:17:11 pm

From what I have read, a BluRay disk was shown at a demo to still play after having been scuffed with a belt sander. There's nothing wrong with archiving to hard drives, but what appeals to me about BD is that you can easily print and ship multiple BD disks pretty cheaply, just like DVD's, off a Bravo primera or similar duplicator, at a low per-unit cost, and with less hassle than cloning and shipping multiple hard drives. BD disks can play in game systems, computers as well as set-top devices, so there are multiple ways to play it.

BD is not perfect for everything, but I am really interested in it for shipping out spots and VNR's in high def to multiple clients who for some reason don't want to use FTP, and I like the self-standing archive ability of the BD disks.


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Rich Rubasch
Re: Simple Archiving to Blu-Ray?
on Nov 29, 2009 at 9:37:30 pm

We backup to bare 500GB-1TB SATA drives. I have about 25 of these. Recently I lost a 500GB drive #3. It had projecst from 2007-2008....about 30 of them. The drive just clicked. It was still in warranty too.

I sent it to Seagate i365 for recovery. After 3 weeks of major head replacement etc, they are only able to recover about 100 GB of the 500 on the drive. Naturally smaller files have a better chance of recovery. They are one of the best in the business but hard drives are fickle machines when they go bad.

After we lost the drive I got duplicate drives for all the backups we had and copied them all to their own backup. I have one set in storage and one at the office. Right now that is about $3000 worth of drives.

Now I know that if I lose a 1TB drive I'm not getting much back. I think we are all going to have this issue as our backups get nearer and nearer to the 5 year warranty mark. I will get a new drive for the one that went bad but will probably lose a pile of project data.

I am considering a BluRay option to save all files except the huge media files and DVD builds etc as a more reliable longer term storage. We used to backup project files on DVD as well as Hard drive with all media. Stopped doing the DVD thing about 3 years ago. Too bad. They are rock solid. Now it might be BluRay...(so slow).

Right now, after our recent drive debacle, I am less and less trusting of the mechanical hard drive. And Since 1992 I have only experienced a bad drive two other times, from Avids to Media 100 to IMix Cube, including system drives. This one hurt.

Oh, and the 100 GB I might get back? Cost me $1400. In this case drives aren't cheap!

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media Inc.
Video Production and Post
Owner/President/Editor/Designer/Animator


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Mark Suszko
Re: Simple Archiving to Blu-Ray?
on Nov 29, 2009 at 10:40:21 pm

Sorry to hear about your troubles, Rich. Not on the same scale as your woes, but I recently had the backup drive on my home system go into the "clicks of death" and it stopped being able to boot. I employed a modern-day folk remedy I'd heard of, and ridiculous as it may sound, it worked for me: I put the failed drive in my kitchen freezer overnight, and it booted up on the second try the next day, and ran for another 20 hours as I transferred everything off of it to a new replacement drive. You really have to cold-soak the thing for this trick to work, an hour or two in the freezer is not enough, is what I found out by trying that, but 8 hours or more DID work.

Back onto topic; I just think that you can't get more "solid state" than optical media, unless we're talking flash drives, which BTW are not rated to last forever either, and cloning/dubbing BD disks has got to be easier than buying drives. I know collecting hard drives works fine for a lot of people. I just personally don't want to go down that road.


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Petteri Evilampi
Re: Simple Archiving to Blu-Ray?
on Nov 30, 2009 at 2:12:05 pm

This is probably the most important thread in Cow forums.

We are talking here about really, REALLY serious thing. We, audio/visual folk are just a tiny piece in this HUGE problem that is waiting to be solved by big companies like Sony, Toshiba, Hitachi, etc.

What we are talking here is no less than how HISTORY will be written. People have been writing all their important knowledge on stone, leather, papyrus, paper and later on film. Now it is ALL in hard drives and magnetic tape. What will be left of this after not centuries later, but only few decades? NASA has admitted that they have already lost ALL data from moon flights!!

NASA!!!

Future generations will have huge difficulties to find out what was life like in our days if something really revolutionary data storage technology will not be invented in near future.


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Neil Sadwelkar
Re: Simple Archiving to Blu-Ray?
on Nov 30, 2009 at 2:31:43 pm

If LTO is a choice, BRU has their excellent software and LTO drives as bundles here...

http://www.tolisgroup.com/products/bundles.html
and
http://www.productionbackup.com/info/bundles.html

LTOs are remarkable sturdy, need no power, don't crash and cost under $40 for 800 GB backup. A Bru bundle costs about $ 4500.

If that's too expensive, and your data set is smaller, like Red media, XDCamEx SxS, P2, or HDSLR video, then Blu-ray is a viable choice. You can do a 1 card to 1 disk backup for easy organization.

When larger optical disks are available, and there are indications that even 1 Tb disks may be available in some years, you can easily migrate your Blu-ray disks to these new large disks. Just like how you can read an old set of CD-Rs backed up even ten or more years ago. And migrate them to DVD-Rs or Blu-rays now.



-----------------------------------
Neil Sadwelkar
neilsadwelkar.blogspot.com
twitter: fcpguru
FCP Editor, Edit systems consultant
Mumbai India


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Rich Rubasch
Re: Simple Archiving to Blu-Ray?
on Nov 30, 2009 at 5:46:00 pm

Exactly, Petteri. We are backing up lots and lots of footage and project files to very sensitive and sometimes fickle devices and think all is well. Drives last 5 years and that is it. Sure some last longer, but it becomes a gamble. BluRay is very slow and has limited storage capacity for what most of us need.

These small cheap USB drives like the Western Digital Passport are being bought by camera guys who back up their P2 and XDCAM folders to them and they put them on a shelf. Some guys even think that just because they are so small that it is solid state media inside there and not a small 2.5" drive. Three years from now that footage might not be relevant, but if it is and that drive doesn't boot up, it's gone!

If you had a DVCPRoHD tape of that footage and a deck, I'll bet you'd be just fine.

I think at the next NAB the question that will be asked the most is "Where the hell are you putting all your media?"


Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media Inc.
Video Production and Post
Owner/President/Editor/Designer/Animator


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Simple Archiving to Blu-Ray?
on Nov 30, 2009 at 3:01:34 pm

Promax is coming out with a drive array that has an LTO drive as part of it's config... price is low as well. Don't know much about it, but it sure beats the idea of drives or opticals... Opticals get scratched and drives simply die for no apparent reason...

Getting into LTO is expensive, but once you do it's a ton less than opticals or hard drives. It's also far more reliable. Banks use them for backup of account data in fact.. ever heard of anyone's account information lost? Me neither.

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things.

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX Cinema Displays


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Mark Suszko
Re: Simple Archiving to Blu-Ray?
on Nov 30, 2009 at 5:41:45 pm

Well, I never had anything BUT trouble with LTO systems and would never use that old technology again.


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Simple Archiving to Blu-Ray?
on Nov 30, 2009 at 6:08:48 pm

The problem usually is that the LTO wasn't specifically made to retain metadata... these are for example: http://www.quantum.com/solutions/mediaandentertainment/Index.aspx

The one coming from ProMax I know little about, but it's likely compatible with media files. Not all of them are...

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things.

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX Cinema Displays


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Sergei Franklin
Re: Simple Archiving to Blu-Ray?
on Nov 30, 2009 at 11:12:58 pm

Once this company http://www.millenniata.com has a blu-ray version we might have a archival option for digital media.
I just bought a 12x Pioneer burner. Can't find any info on how long standard BD-R discs last.
Sergei
http://www.sergeifranklin.com


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Simple Archiving to Blu-Ray?
on Dec 1, 2009 at 1:37:41 pm

I've read somewhere that BD disks are touchy. Much more than DVD's. So must be handled very carefully. But that said, they should last long enough for genuine needs, and if the media is all that valuable, you make extra copies of course. Problem I see with them is time it takes to burn them, and read from them, and cost per gig. I suppose the price is falling on them though. LTO technology is improving fast on the cost per gig thing, and the speeds are a lot faster than Blu-Ray. Have to get them suitable for media files is all.

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things.

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX Cinema Displays


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Mike Gilligan
Re: Simple Archiving to Blu-Ray?
on Sep 1, 2010 at 2:05:55 am

Hi,
I have to archive 49 one-hour HDV tapes.
Over the last year, we videotaped the construction of the Walkway Over the Hudson and the client simply wants a backup of the tapes for use as long as possible (years) for several different historical uses.
I don't have the original captured tapes done for the project, just the tapes themselves.
What is the cheapest and most efficient way to do it?

Thanks,

Michael G


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Simple Archiving to Blu-Ray?
on Sep 1, 2010 at 2:11:15 am

Dub them via FireWire camera to camera or deck to camera or deck to tape.

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski. My Blog: http://blogs.creativecow.net/Jerry-Hofmann

DVD:http://store.creativecow.net/p/81/jerry_hofmanns_final_cut_system_setup

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX Cinema Displays


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Mike Gilligan
Re: Simple Archiving to Blu-Ray? and Archiving in general
on Sep 2, 2010 at 12:20:32 am

Thanks Jerry,

However, I understand thru the Cow that DV tape is only physically good for 5 to 10 years and LTO tape will hold together for 50.
This is the first job we've done that requires a very long term archive of all the source material, since it documents the construction of the Walkway Over the Hudson which is now a state park and the people will treat this video as an historical resource.
I'm afraid I may have to capture the 49 hours of HDV tape to a hard drive after all, and then put the stuff on LTO tape. I was trying to avoid that.
Another caveat: I hear some bad things about LTO tape also.

Oh well,

Michael G


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Simple Archiving to Blu-Ray? and Archiving in general
on Sep 2, 2010 at 12:35:19 am

I've not used LTO, but have used DLTs without a problem. I didn't have to archive that long however.

That said, I just taught an FCP class to a group of DP's this past weekend who would know much about this issue, and they've looked into this for the Academy of Motion Picture Arts. Apparently, banks have been using LTO for a while now to back up all of the account information. Well... the oxide seems to not be lasting that long, in fact the DP that I had this conversation with said that banks are reporting loss of data. Not all the data, just some of it only after about 3 years... pretty scary if you ask me. The manufacturers often "exaggerate" shall we say. The DP's have come to the conclusion, that even if you've shot digital (aka RED or other digital camera) that the safest thing out there is to PRINT the film... it lasts a lot longer. But that doesn't cover all the out takes etc, just the film itself.

There isn't an easy answer to this other than if you were to dub to tape, you then have to redub it every so often. I've been using pro tape whenever I'm using tape and it's metal. It lasts a TON longer than the cheap stuff. I have betacam tapes that are at least 15 years old that work OK.

I'd still dub it through firewire so it's a perfect clone, and then in about 10 years do it again until there's a really rock solid backup. Glass is in development for this actually.

Use the Pro tape... not the cheapie stuff. Sony makes it, and it costs about 18 bucks per tape as I recall. It's the pro version of HDV tape.

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski. My Blog: http://blogs.creativecow.net/Jerry-Hofmann

DVD:http://store.creativecow.net/p/81/jerry_hofmanns_final_cut_system_setup

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX Cinema Displays


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