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Attack This Workflow

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Chad Brewer
Attack This Workflow
on Nov 13, 2009 at 2:06:09 am

First off, this scenario was not created by me, it was created by my client.
We have an SD 23.98 DV timeline from 23.98 DV tape - yeah, DV 23.98, on the cheap, ouch.
It is going to be upconverted with our fully loaded Teranex VC300 to 1080psf23.98, eventually ending up on HDCAM to go to film. Ok.
Teranex does not support 480 23.98, only 480i59.94 or 480p59.94.
Thus, if we introduce a pulldown from the 23.98 edit to 59.94 to get into the Teranex, then when we upconvert and go back to 23.98 we will have introduced a pulldown and then a reverse pulldown - messing with reverse pulldowns on top of pulldowns can cause motion artifacts, ghosting, frame issues etc. In video, we usually want to avoid such things at all costs. When something like this is going to be blown up to film for theatrical release, well, the stakes are even higher.
Our best bet is to capture 23.98 DV over firewire and then stay 23.98 for the upconvert - no pulldown either way. However, we've don't know if we can firewire 23.98 SD! with our Sony HVR-M15AU/AN/AE/AP.

Any ideas on this? Cinema Tools? Shotguns? Sledge hammers? Or do we have to live with the reverse pulldown and then pulldown because it's 23.98 DV?



chad
TeleVersions Broadcast Video


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Arnie Schlissel
Re: Attack This Workflow
on Nov 13, 2009 at 3:59:22 am

First off, there's no such thing as 23.98 on DV tape. All DV tape is either 29.97 or 25. DV Cameras that shoot 24P lay it onto tape with pulldown. But you knew that...

Do you have a Decklink or Kona card on your edit system? If so, you might be able to use the card to upconvert from DV 23.98 to 1080 23.98PsF. Many of these cards will do that conversion, and they do it well.

Arnie

Post production is not an afterthought!
http://www.arniepix.com/


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Chad Brewer
Re: Attack This Workflow
on Nov 13, 2009 at 5:24:20 am

I have Kona 3. Better yet for this project, Teranex.
I think we're stuck in 29.97 pulldown territory. We will live. Thanks for the input!

chad
TeleVersions Broadcast Video


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Arnie Schlissel
Re: Attack This Workflow
on Nov 13, 2009 at 5:39:29 am

If you have a Kona 3, then you're all set. The Kona can upconvert your 24P DV to 24P 1080 without having to go through the headache of adding and removing pulldown. It's simply a setting in the Kona control panel.

Arnie

Post production is not an afterthought!
http://www.arniepix.com/


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Attack This Workflow
on Nov 13, 2009 at 2:11:25 pm

Yeah, but let's face it, if you had a choice between a Terranex and a Kona for upconverting HD, the Terranex would win. This is no blight on AJA, but DV is a tough format to upconvert.

Now, since you already have a 23.98 movie, Chad, does the Terranex have 3:2 pulldown detection? The good thing is that if you playout from FCP you will have a consistent pulldown cadence. Now, if this movie is on tape, then we have to come up with something else, bit it would depend on how the tape was mastered.


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Reid VanVoris
Re: Attack This Workflow
on Nov 13, 2009 at 2:30:50 pm

Try this $100 solution from Nattress. Very high quality for software conversion. Then you can go ahead and use the terranex box you already own.

http://www.nattress.com/Products/standardsconversion/GAddPull.htm

Reid VanVoris
e-Mail: r1108@hotmail.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Attack This Workflow
on Nov 13, 2009 at 3:28:27 pm

There's no reason to add pulldown to get to 24p, don't you think?


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Arnie Schlissel
Re: Attack This Workflow
on Nov 13, 2009 at 2:44:08 pm


The problem with using a Teranex is that if it hits a cut that starts on a pulldown frame, the next frame or 2 will be mushy. If you use the K3 to convert, you never add the pulldown, less mush.

Arnie

Post production is not an afterthought!
http://www.arniepix.com/


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Attack This Workflow
on Nov 13, 2009 at 3:29:16 pm

[Arnie Schlissel] "If you use the K3 to convert, you never add the pulldown, less mush."

Less mush field wise, but the picture will be much more noisy.



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Rafael Amador
Re: Attack This Workflow
on Nov 13, 2009 at 4:16:51 pm

This post have been erased by my self.
The idea was great but impossible to materialize.
Time to go to bed,

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Attack This Workflow
on Nov 13, 2009 at 4:24:28 pm

That was going to be my next suggestion. Upconvert the material through the Terranex to 1080p25, the run it back through the Terranex to 1080psf23.98.

Jeremy


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Chad Brewer
Workflow Got A Beat Down
on Nov 14, 2009 at 2:08:58 am

Rafael, I did not understand your post, "pero, dulces suenos."

Thanks to everyone that contributed input on this workflow.
The Kona 3 can do a lot of things. I have two of them. With this scenario, full blown Teranex hardware is the only option unless you want the film lab to reject your video tape because of frame artifacts like ghosting, interpolation, soft picture, etc. I've heard the Snell & Wilcox Alchemist HD doesn't even do 23.98.
We did a DV 29.97 output from FCP through the Teranex with reverse pulldown to HDCAM 23.98. It looked really good as expected, but we did find ghost frames and the edit points were softened as we've seen before in this specific upconvert from DV to 1080 workflow. Now enter the insane realm of the fully optioned Teranex VC300: It has video over film cadence tools. Once correctly configured, all artifacting of ANY sort was gone - even for this crazy 23.98 DV upconvert to HDCAM mastering.
This box really can turn apples in to oranges. Ever need the highest quality up/down/cross convert? Call me.





chad
TeleVersions Broadcast Video


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Rafael Amador
Re: Workflow Got A Beat Down
on Nov 14, 2009 at 4:15:25 am

Hi Chad,
I wrote that I would conform the DV footage to 23'98, the upscale it with the Teranex.
But how to feed the Teranex with DV PAL re-comformed to 23'98?
No sense.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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