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Hey Jeremy - P2 24p & 29.97 mixed timeline question

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Bret Williams
Hey Jeremy - P2 24p & 29.97 mixed timeline question
on Nov 2, 2009 at 5:06:11 pm

Hello Jeremy, or anyone else an expert on this question. I just saw in this post a couple weeks ago you were addressing a similar issue... http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/8/1057677

Anyway, I've got a mixed bag of stuff in my timeline, but the main two issues are that I'm mixing 720p P2 material (yes real 24p, no pulldown added) which is the majority of the footage and 16:9 29.97 480p footage.

Before reading your thread I tried mixing the two in a 24p timeline (with hopes of making an actual 24p DVD) but the 29.97 stuff looked horrible. It was of course removing every fifth frame and I should've know that would look horrible. So I went to the 29.97 sequence. But FCP's pulldown it added was simply a duplicated frame. 90% of the 24p looked perfectly normal until you had a pan or similar shot.

So I found your thread and swapped the timeline to 59.97. My usual method, duplicate the timeline, copy all, delete all, change the sequence preset to 59.97, then paste everything back in. It seems to have worked as the 24p runs a little smoother now. Did I do this right? There were a few hiccups that I made adjustments to and now the sequence seems good to go.

So now what? What is the best way to prepare this new 59.94 sequence for DVD? Do I just export a reference movie and drop it in DVD SP like usual?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Hey Jeremy - P2 24p & 29.97 mixed timeline question
on Nov 2, 2009 at 5:37:45 pm

Hi Brett.

[Bret Williams] "16:9 29.97 480p footage. "

Is this 30p or 24P with pulldown?

[Bret Williams] "Before reading your thread I tried mixing the two in a 24p timeline (with hopes of making an actual 24p DVD) but the 29.97 stuff looked horrible"

Yeah, FCP doesn't do a real nice job of this kind of workflow. Adjusting the footage outside of FCP and bringing it back in is always the best solution.

[Bret Williams] "So I found your thread and swapped the timeline to 59.97."

That's 59.94 :)

[Bret Williams] "Did I do this right?"

Sounds good. You could have just made a new sequence with the 720p 59.94 preset and pasted the new clips in to there. Your 24p footage will now have progressive 3:2 pulldown added to it (3 dupes, then 2 dupes, this is totally normal and acceptable) and if your 480 footage was 30p (and not 24p with pulldown) you should see 2:2 pulldown in that every frame is duplicated. Is that what you have?

The other method is to conform all 480 material to 24p 720 using COmpressor, but I would leave that up to you and it is a conform, meaning new pixels will be made. Using the 720p59.94 timeline, there's no conformed/warped pixels, just new duplicate frames. Hope that makes sense.

If your 480 footage is 24p with pulldown, post back.

Jeremy


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Bret Williams
Re: Hey Jeremy - P2 24p & 29.97 mixed timeline question
on Nov 2, 2009 at 5:52:28 pm

But the big question, how do I now go to DVD?

And, ah yes, the 16:9 was regular old SD 30p. Not sure what it was shot on, but didn't have any fields. 29.97 I guess actually. I'm sure they just used frame or movie mode or progressive or whatever. We were just given the media files from another company.

I tried using compressor to convert the 29.97 to 24 and that was not good. Not to mention it wanted to take 15minutes for each 30 sec clip or so. The compression times were horrible.

A quick trick I found useful, only because our 29.97 stuff was just jib arm beauty shots, was to open them in cinema tools and conform them to play back at 24. Then then looked in beautiful in a 24p sequence of course. But if you had an interview or something, this wouldn't do.

I also had the problem of scaling up the SD to HD. Compressor stunk at this. FCP stunk at this. The matrox mini does a great job of this from the canvas to the LCD, but once you drop the clip in the timeline, the job gets handed over to FCP. UGH. The best answer by far is After Effects. It's scaling engine is the best by far and it only takes a few seconds to render each clip. I also put a little sharpening on each shot and a little "instant sex" tiny glow ala Trish and Chris Meyer. The result is a shot that is very very close to it's HD counterparts.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Hey Jeremy - P2 24p & 29.97 mixed timeline question
on Nov 2, 2009 at 6:24:44 pm

[Bret Williams] "But the big question, how do I now go to DVD? "

I have an HD to Sd preset for MPEG2 in Compressor. You will make a 29.97 MPEG2 and your 24p footage will be 24p with 3:2 pulldown and your 30p footage will be 30p SD.

You can start with a 16x9 preset, but then turn on Frame controls and use Best for Resize filter, deinterlacing set to fast (for proper segmenting) output fields to lower. Rate conversion can be left at fast.

make sense?

Jeremy


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Bret Williams
Re: Hey Jeremy - P2 24p & 29.97 mixed timeline question
on Nov 2, 2009 at 7:02:25 pm

So I guess the pulldown over 60 frames will now occur over 60 fields? IOW the 3232 will end up looking like a mixture of progressive and interlaced frames, correct? Otherwise seems like it would be all for not.

Bret Williams
Web Design . Motion Graphics . Video Editing
http://www.bretwilliams.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Hey Jeremy - P2 24p & 29.97 mixed timeline question
on Nov 2, 2009 at 7:08:25 pm

The beauty of 60p, is that it will translate to 29.97i perfectly. Each p frame gets mapped to one i field.

So in 60p, 24p with 3:2 pulldown (that's progressive pulldown remember) will get mapped to 24p with interlaced 3:2 pulldown in 29.97.

30p over 60p will get mapped to 30psf in 29.97 timebases.

Jeremy


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Bret Williams
Re: Hey Jeremy - P2 24p & 29.97 mixed timeline question
on Nov 2, 2009 at 8:33:49 pm

Like the old days when the 3D animators couldn't render in fields, so I had them render as 60fps, then in AE I dropped it into a 30fps timeline and AE would interlace the two.

Maybe you don't remember those AE 3.x days or the days of Media 100 version 2 & 3.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Hey Jeremy - P2 24p & 29.97 mixed timeline question
on Nov 2, 2009 at 8:58:27 pm

That is the very same principle exactly.



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Bret Williams
Re: Hey Jeremy - P2 24p & 29.97 mixed timeline question
on Nov 3, 2009 at 6:33:18 am

I ran a test DVD and everything 24p looked great and smooth, but the 29.97 material definitely has it's fields reversed.

You said to use "lower" in your Compressor specs, but they called it top and bottom field. I used bottom. That right? If so, why would the fields be reversed in my 29.97 content (which actually never had fields to begin with)?

Brain hurt. Ow.

Thanks for your advice!


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Hey Jeremy - P2 24p & 29.97 mixed timeline question
on Nov 3, 2009 at 3:51:34 pm

[Bret Williams] "That right? If so, why would the fields be reversed in my 29.97 content (which actually never had fields to begin with)? "

Ah, totally forgot to tell you about this and sorry for that.

Do me a favor. In your browser, take a look at what is listed under the field dominance column. Is it lower first? Yes, lower is bottom. :)

Jeremy


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Bret Williams
Re: Hey Jeremy - P2 24p & 29.97 mixed timeline question
on Nov 4, 2009 at 7:53:14 am

For the SD footage? My timeline is made up of 24p and 29.97. The SD 29.97 stuff is anamorphic. Came from an Avid, and was run through compressor to make it all pro res hq. 720x486 Upper.

And actually, I'm looking at the DVD again and I was viewing it as letterbox. When I turn off the letterbox and watch it raw, I don't see the interlacing or waving. I think it was just the field mush created when my DVD player squeezed it into the letterbox. Since the 24p only had fields every 4th or 5th framee, it wasn't noticeable when it was squeezed into the letterbox I guess.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Hey Jeremy - P2 24p & 29.97 mixed timeline question
on Nov 4, 2009 at 3:43:15 pm

[Bret Williams] "Came from an Avid, and was run through compressor to make it all pro res hq. 720x486 Upper. "

See, I'd make that 720x486 none. It is 30p, right?

As far as the 24p stuff, I would have removed the pulldown and upconverted in COmpressor and made a 720p24 movie, then plopped that in the timleine to get the proper pulldown added to the 59.94 timeline.

A true conform.

Jeremy


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Bret Williams
Re: Hey Jeremy - P2 24p & 29.97 mixed timeline question
on Nov 4, 2009 at 8:06:34 pm

The 24p stuff never had pulldown. Usually I add pulldown upon log and transfer, but I didn't do the conversion, the cameraman did.

Pretend all I had was 24p P2 files. No pulldown. What would be the proper way to create 29.97 video with the proper pulldown. Work in a 59.94 sequence? Is that what you're saying? I don't understand why you'd run your 24p footage through compressor. Seems like a poor workflow when you might have hours and hours of footage.

We now have to also create DVCams of our pure 24p sequences. Any advice there? Just run the final through compressor? Will it create the correct 2:3:2:3 pulldown for 29.97 DVCam? I have the matrox mini, but it doesn't do the conversion and it doesn't have firewire out and my DVCam only has svideo in. Argh.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Hey Jeremy - P2 24p & 29.97 mixed timeline question
on Nov 4, 2009 at 8:16:47 pm

[Bret Williams] " I don't understand why you'd run your 24p footage through compressor"

I think I misunderstood and forgot that all of your 24p footage was HD. I thought you meant 24p SD as well. If I had 24p SD (which has pulldown), I'd only comfrom what was needed for the final timeline.

Sorry for this misunderstanding and forget what I said last time about removing pulldown (that was for 24p SD). Moving forward, your 24p is HD and your SD is 30p.

[Bret Williams] "We now have to also create DVCams of our pure 24p sequences. Any advice there?"

Do you have a Kona card? That will do it in real time. If not, you can drop a 23.98p HD movie into a custom created 23.98 DV timeline, you can choose to letterbox or not, and FCP will add the proper 3:2 pulldown on playout.

[Bret Williams] "Just run the final through compressor? Will it create the correct 2:3:2:3 pulldown for 29.97 DVCam?"

You can do that too, but you have to setup Compressor correctly to add the 3:2 interlaced pulldown.

If you have a pure 23.98 sequence, you can still make a DVD of that, or use the two methods descibed above. If you need to mix 24p HD and 30p SD, I'd put everything in a 720p60 timeline, and then make a 29.97 DVD, and a downconverted SD tape.

Jeremy


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Bret Williams
Re: Hey Jeremy - P2 24p & 29.97 mixed timeline question
on Nov 5, 2009 at 9:05:28 am

I have a matrox mxo2 mini, and looks like it won't do time base conversions. Besides, my dvcam only has FW or Svideo in.

So the best way to get our 24p sequences onto DVCam then is a custom 23.98 DV seq. I'll have to look at that.

So, this project has thrown me into just about every aspect of 24p! Thanks for some awesome advice!

The mixed sequence btw worked perfectly and I ended up using AE to intrrlace my 59.94 720p to 29.97 SD. Faster than compressor and I just trust it's scaling engine more.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Hey Jeremy - P2 24p & 29.97 mixed timeline question
on Nov 5, 2009 at 3:54:04 pm

[Bret Williams] "The mixed sequence btw worked perfectly and I ended up using AE to intrrlace my 59.94 720p to 29.97 SD. "

That works too.

Glad I could help and I hope it all made sense.

A 23.98 dv timeline is a little known fact, but FCP has been able to add pulldown correctly via firewire since FCP3, too bad it can't render it properly in a timeline. :(

Jeremy


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Bret Williams
Re: Hey Jeremy - P2 24p & 29.97 mixed timeline question
on Nov 6, 2009 at 5:03:01 am

Where is that preset? I wasn't able to get it to happen.

Oh, and I was wrong. Don't know what I was thinking, but the matrox mxo2 mini does do 24 to 30 on the fly conversion. It does just about everything the kona does, but just has limited interface options. Hdmi or component.


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Bret Williams
Re: Hey Jeremy - P2 24p & 29.97 mixed timeline question
on Nov 6, 2009 at 2:43:59 pm

Oh, wait. A 24p "DV" timeline. I guess I have a 24p HD timeline. Yeah, the mini works, but I'd have to go in svideo to my DVCam deck. So we just exported the 24p sequences as 29.97 and nothing is moving too fast so the basic pulldown is ok. I guess we'd have to go the 59.94 route to smooth it all out? That's a neat trick. The prodcer was impressed with how smooth it all came out for the other mixed sequence.

(We have 4 outputs - 3 720 24p, 1 720 24p + SD 29.97 anamorphic)


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Hey Jeremy - P2 24p & 29.97 mixed timeline question
on Nov 6, 2009 at 3:57:11 pm

OK, let's do a run down of everything and how to get it out to dv via firewire.

If you have mixed frame rates (24pHD and 30p SD) oyu work in a 720p 59.94 timeline. Form there, you do a down-convert to 29.97 which you have used After Effects for.

If you have a 720p24 timeline only, you can then either export a reference movie and reimport it into FCP, or nest your current HD timeline in to a 23.98 DV codec anamorphic timeline and render (you can choose to letterbox (which FCP will default to) or change the PAR to anamorphic. FCP will add pulldown on playback to dv.

[Bret Williams] "So we just exported the 24p sequences as 29.97 and nothing is moving too fast so the basic pulldown is ok."

This is not the way to go if using just FCP.

[Bret Williams] "(We have 4 outputs - 3 720 24p, 1 720 24p"

What's the difference between these two?

Jeremy


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Matt Campbell
Re: Hey Jeremy - P2 24p & 29.97 mixed timeline question
on Mar 3, 2010 at 3:15:29 pm

Jeremy or Brett, I'm wanting to know if this same concept will work with all HD material. I have 2 ProRes files, one a 1080p23.98 TV spot that a client wants to run back to back with their supplied file, which is 720p30 running at 29.97. Since both files are progressive, if I create a 720p59.94 sequence in FCP and drop both files in, will FCP add in the correct pulldown to both. The 1080p file looks right with 3:2 pulldown, 1 new frame with 1 repeat frame, then 1 new frame with 2 repeat frames. Is this correct?

The 720p29.97 clip is 1 new frame with 1 repeat frame throughout. Is this correct?

I think I'm okay with this, but I want to make sure I'm doing this right. Does that sound right?

Also, I know the 720p29.97 file the client sent is a such, because of what the browser shows me in FCP, but I'm seeing some jaggies with some of the footage. My guess is that is was interlaced footage at one point and now its progressive. Could he have deinterlaced footage to use with his other 720p material? I know you can't tell without looking at the clip, but could this be the case in having jaggies in a 720 progressive clip?

OS 10.5.5, Mac Pro 2 x 3 ghz quad-core intel xenon, 9 gb ram, with BM Intensity Pro card


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cowcowcowcow
Jeremy Garchow
Re: Hey Jeremy - P2 24p & 29.97 mixed timeline question
on Mar 3, 2010 at 4:05:27 pm

[Matt Campbell] " Is this correct? "

It should work, yes.


[Matt Campbell] "Could he have deinterlaced footage to use with his other 720p material?"

Quite possibly, or it was SD material up converted to HD.

Jeremy


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Matt Campbell
Re: Hey Jeremy - P2 24p & 29.97 mixed timeline question
on Mar 3, 2010 at 4:09:14 pm

Word. thanks.

OS 10.5.5, Mac Pro 2 x 3 ghz quad-core intel xenon, 9 gb ram, with BM Intensity Pro card


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