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Good Chroma Key Possible Without Extra Plugins ?

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Howard Ferguson
Good Chroma Key Possible Without Extra Plugins ?
on Oct 18, 2009 at 8:49:23 pm

Hi,

Is it possible to get quality chroma key results just using Final Cut, without extra pluugins ?

We've had mixed results.

Speaking with the Final Cut project manager from Apple the other day at their Pro Tour, he recommended Boris.

I'm wondering if I'm wasting my time not having Boris, or if it can be done in Final Cut- and I just need to know more to do it properly ?

Thanks for your time !

Howard Ferguson


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walter biscardi
Re: Good Chroma Key Possible Without Extra Plugins ?
on Oct 18, 2009 at 9:17:31 pm

To answer your question the answer is yes if:

1 - The set is properly lit. That is good lighting on the green screen / cyc and good lighting on the talent.

2 - Good separation between the talent and the green screen / cyc. Put the talent too close and you have green cast all over everything.

3 - You shoot on a high quality format like DigiBeta, Uncompressed HD.

If you don't do all of the above, then you're going to want a good plug-in like the Boris Continuum package.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

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Arnie Schlissel
Re: Good Chroma Key Possible Without Extra Plugins ?
on Oct 18, 2009 at 9:39:30 pm

I prefer to do most of my keying with Shake for just this reason. The odds are against getting perfectly lit and staged keys, even when experienced pros are shooting them. Shake offers a lot of extra flexibility when building a key.

And getting good keys is usually a multi stage process, often involving breaking a shot up into separate sections and building separate keys that get combined into a single matte.

Arnie

Post production is not an afterthought!
http://www.arniepix.com/


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John Fishback
Re: Good Chroma Key Possible Without Extra Plugins ?
on Oct 18, 2009 at 10:59:23 pm

IMHO, Motion's keyer (Primatte) is better than FCPs.

John

MacPro 8-core 2.8GHz 8 GB RAM OS 10.5.5 QT7.5.5 Kona 3 Dual Cinema 23 ATI Radeon HD 3870, 24" TV-Logic Monitor, ATTO ExpressSAS R380 RAID Adapter, PDE enclosure with 8-drive 6TB RAID 5
FCS 2 (FCP 6.0.5, Comp 3.0.5, DVDSP 4.2.1, Color 1.0.3)

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Rafael Amador
Re: Good Chroma Key Possible Without Extra Plugins ?
on Oct 19, 2009 at 3:22:28 am

The keyers mentioned by Arnie and John, are better (much more advanced) than the default FCs Chroma Key. But I would recommends you to use the FC's CK for two reasons:
- Indeed is a very good filter that works in 32b Floating Point.
- You should learn to light and pull a key with this "classic CK" filter before to try to go to a more advanced system.
Learn to drive a motorbike before you try to drive a truck.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Howard Ferguson
Re: Good Chroma Key Possible Without Extra Plugins ?
on Oct 19, 2009 at 7:35:47 am

Hi Rafael,

That is a very good point.

If I wanted to fix some segments, with unintentional green splash on the subject, from the incorrect lighting . . .

Is that possible solely in Final Cut ?

Thanks to all for your help !

Howard


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Rafael Amador
Re: Good Chroma Key Possible Without Extra Plugins ?
on Oct 19, 2009 at 9:11:22 am

try the Spill Suppressor Green filter.
Rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Mark Suszko
Re: Good Chroma Key Possible Without Extra Plugins ?
on Oct 19, 2009 at 2:34:22 pm

A trick I use sometimes is to not try to do the final composite in one go, but to first create a new greenscreen shot from the old one, replacing the original green from the camera with one from the matte generator, THEN making the full composite off of that. And it needn't be green you replace with, if later you think blue works better.


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cowcowcowcowcow
Alan Okey
Re: Good Chroma Key Possible Without Extra Plugins ?
on Oct 19, 2009 at 3:46:15 pm

[Arnie Schlissel] "getting good keys is usually a multi stage process, often involving breaking a shot up into separate sections and building separate keys that get combined into a single matte. "

This is the most overlooked/ignored aspect of pulling a good key, and it's often because it involves something that many people aren't willing to do, which is work.

90% of the time when someone asks this question in a forum, they don't want to actually take the time to learn how to build a good key, they want a quick and easy one-click solution.

I'll posit this theorem:

The quality of a key is directly proportional to A) the amount of care taken in shooting the footage and B) the amount of effort put into building and finessing the key.

If a lot of time and care was taken in setting up a green screen shot, there is a much higher likelihood of having a satisfactory result form using a one-click keying solution. Since in the real world most green screen footage isn't perfectly shot, this means that you'll need to take the time to learn about all of the different keying options and associated tools at your disposal, and learn how to build a good key. No two shots are alike, and pursuing a one-size-fits-all solution will end in a low rate of success.

Of course most editors probably don't want to become compositors, so this might be asking too much of them. But there's no free ride - the choices are to A) pick the easiest option and live with a less than perfect key, B) take the time to learn and practice and become competent in creating great keys, or C) hire a compositor to do it.

There are so many parts of the problem to address, and so many tools and techniques relevant to the process. Here's a short list for starters:

- chroma sampling and its impact on key quality (4:1:1 vs 4:2:2, etc.)
- garbage mattes (rotoscoped or procedural)
- core mattes and edge mattes
- spill suppression

I can't recommend enough dvGarage's Conduit plugin for Final Cut Pro. It has everything you need to get under the hood and build a great key for any given shot. It doesn't have the roto tools of a dedicated compositing app, but for most basic work it's a fantastic toolbox and a great way to learn about compositing. Shake users will feel right at home. The video tutorials on the dvGarage site are spectacular.

http://www.dvgarage.com/prod/prod.php?prod=conduit2

At only $200, it's a steal. Of course it won't satisfy anyone who is looking for a quick one-click soluton for keying, but it's infinitely more powerful and flexible than one-click solutions. It requires a commitment to learning and practicing to get good results.

What's the old proverb? Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he eats for a lifetime. Or something like that.

Having a one-click keyer that works some of the time is not nearly as useful as knowing how to build your own keyer and how to work to create a perfect key every time.


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Mark Suszko
Re: Good Chroma Key Possible Without Extra Plugins ?
on Oct 19, 2009 at 6:02:25 pm

I'm one editor who can't get enough of compositing, I figure its just another editing tool.

And the old saying goes:

"Build a man a fire, you keep him warm for a night.
SET a man on fire; you keep him warm his whole life:"


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Alan Okey
Re: Good Chroma Key Possible Without Extra Plugins ?
on Oct 20, 2009 at 7:34:35 pm

[Mark Suszko] "And the old saying goes:

"Build a man a fire, you keep him warm for a night.
SET a man on fire; you keep him warm his whole life:""


I just read this. Thanks, you're responsible for me snarfing soda through my nose.

I'm definitely going to steal this for future use.

;)


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Stu Siegal
Re: Good Chroma Key Possible Without Extra Plugins ?
on Oct 19, 2009 at 11:28:54 pm

I have to second Alan's recommendation. I always hated pulling keys, but dvgarage is some of the best $200 I've spent. Once you get comfortable with it, which doesn't take long, it will save you much time, which is, of course, money.

http://www.verite-media.com


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Howard Ferguson
Re: Good Chroma Key Possible Without Extra Plugins ?
on Oct 20, 2009 at 5:48:18 am

Hi !

All of these responses have been wonderfully helpful.

I'm in the midst of researching them at this time.

With a "subject image", that has a green tint on some of the edges (due to poor lighting),

What is the best way to rescue those areas, and return them to their "before bad lighting" color state ?

I can't thank you folks enough for all your help !

Howard Ferguson


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Mark Suszko
Re: Good Chroma Key Possible Without Extra Plugins ?
on Oct 20, 2009 at 5:56:48 am

Depending on the software, you would play with the controls for "Spill Suppression" and perhaps also "choke". Spill suppression applies a counter-color to the key color in the edges, if you shot on green, it will apply a magenta tint because magenta is opposite green on the color wheel. In fact one way to kill spill is when you're first shooting, to back-light the person with a rim light colored by a magenta gel. If you turn that control up too much the magenta will start to affect the whole picture and not just the edges. While I have Ultimatte and he diamond keyer in Combustion, I have so far done all my keying with the basic FCP built-in keyer or the Primatte keyer or Greenscreen keyer and spill suppressor found in Apple Motion.

If you use Ultimatte, the process is a *little* bit different because it works on a slightly different principle and adding magenta can hurt more than help. Please explain exactly what software you have for keying, and we can give better/more specific advice. Use the posting tools to put up sample stills of your raw shot and the best you can do so far.


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Howard Ferguson
Re: Good Chroma Key Possible Without Extra Plugins ?
on Oct 20, 2009 at 7:23:21 am

Hi Mark,

Thanks for your response !

Currently, I'm using only Final Cut 7.

Our lighting on this shoot was obviously bad, and fixable in future shoots.
But I'd like to figure out a way to use this footage anyway.

I am posting a raw screen shot example of this from the Canvas.

In response, I thought it perhaps more useful to display the worst of the problems.

This shot displays those problems:





1) Green glow along many of the lines of the Chroma Image, and-
2) Part of the face subtracted, because it was "more green" . . .

That really is the heart of the problems with this sequence.

Thanks again for all of these very helpful responses !

Howard Ferguson


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Tom Brooks
Re: Good Chroma Key Possible Without Extra Plugins ?
on Oct 20, 2009 at 12:36:21 pm

That looks awfully aggressive on the edge softening. Try to get "close" with a garbage matte and good key color selection before you get too aggressive. Get a key that leaves a little edge around the subject rather than cutting in. Then use a little edge thin and enhance to get closer. Go to choke after that.


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Mark Suszko
Re: Good Chroma Key Possible Without Extra Plugins ?
on Oct 20, 2009 at 5:41:56 pm

Agree with Tom. Also, go into the motion tab and turn on some shadow, since you're keying over black, this may hide some of the edge problems too.

I suggest you start the key over. First, do a color-correcting pass on this footage, use the 3-way color corrector to maximize the image quality, enhance the blacks, pump up the mids a tad, and reduce the highs a little bit. For that, just use the 3 little sliders under the three circular color wheels. Render out the clip and work with that. Put a crop around he guy with just enough room to contain him and his arm motions.

Now, back to using the chromakeyer. Use the eyedropper tool to sample the green, but choose from an area as close to the guy's face or hair as possible, without touching the edge or his face. Next, using the GUI graphic user interface for the keyer, ( a little button on the screen switches between GUI and numeric) use the grab handles and start adjusting the trapezoidal shapes of the "envelopes" for the luminance settings as well as the other sections, this is a lot of trial and error, get it as clean as you can. My guess is you'll stretch the left hand side of the luminance envelope farther left, but just a guess. You have up to four corners to drag on with these trapezoids, try little changes and observe results. Get that as good as you can. Only then would I turn on the spill killer and adjust that. Then turn on the shadow generator and add a subtle shadow there.

It may be that you can't get his face and the chair in one pass. You could try making a second duplicate layer with the top cropped down to his chest, and adjust just for the chair, depends if his arms wave a lot. Stack the two keys to make one good composite. Another way to attack the chair is, if the shot is locked down and doesn't move, take a still of the shot into photoshop and paint out the green spill using the clone toolbrush or similar. Erase everything that is not the chair parts, save it out as a tiff or targa with alpha channel, lay that back in your timeline right over the bad chair parts.

Try this and report back with more stills, they really help. Don't give up!






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Howard Ferguson
Re: Good Chroma Key Possible Without Extra Plugins ?
on Oct 21, 2009 at 7:51:32 am

Hi Tom and Mark !

I can't thank all you folks enough for your helpful coaching on this.

This is how the image appears,
Without all the other stuff I had done previously (in the last pict)-
and with a close Garbage matte.

(And with the 3-way Color Corrector set to Automatic-
which created very similar minor changes as to what Mark recommended.)





It seems to me that a significant part of nearly all the borders of the image are tinted green.
(From the bad lighting of that session.)

Is there a way to change only those specific (wrongly) green tinted border regions,
to be the desired colors ?

As you can see in this shot,
the green tint invades far into his glasses and face on the left.

Thanks again !

Howard Ferguson


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Tom Brooks
Re: Good Chroma Key Possible Without Extra Plugins ?
on Oct 21, 2009 at 10:35:17 am

That's looking better but still not there. Being under the gun on an edit, I forgot to mention anything about DV video and color smoothing filters. Are you in an NTSC DV timeline? DV is bad for keying because of low color resolution. If you are willing to change the compressor for your sequence at this point (which may force you to render the whole timeline) you could change to DV50 or ProRes 422. I'm not sure it will help the initial key, but it might help if you have to go to multiple key layers. You should also apply the Color Smoothing 411 filter to your shot. It should be the top filter in the stack. This helps the DV color compression problem a lot. So, at least start with Color Smoothing 411 before you try anything else.

The next filter should be Chroma Keyer.

To refine this key a bit more, try pulling out the bottom sliders on the color, sat, and luma--a little bit, one at a time. See if edge improves.

Then apply some Edge Thin. If it's jagged and crunchy on the edge, apply a little smoothing. Turn up the Enhancement, which dials the remaining green out or replaces it with magenta. A little bit will render the edge neutral. Too much will just give you a bright magenta edge instead of a green one.

Spill suppressor will color balance the subject away from green. In other words, it pulls the color toward red. That will clean up the ugly green cast that may be subtly visible on the face and jacket.

The part behind the glasses might be the toughest, although if you get the rest of it, that should come along pretty well. You might have to do something separate to get that area.

Maybe Mark and others can chime in on any of my ideas. For instance, I'm not sure whether you'd need color smoothing 411 or 422 if you change to a DV50 or ProRes compression (as those are 4:2:2 codecs). I'm interested to see how far this key can come via Cow Coaching.


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Dave Jenkins
Re: Good Chroma Key Possible Without Extra Plugins ?
on Oct 22, 2009 at 4:39:14 am

Here is the info from the FCP PDF manual.

Overview of Compositing Using the Chroma Keyer Filter

Although you can use one of several different filters for keying, you often use more than one filter, depending on the qualities of the video clip. In general, the process of compositing two shots together by keying consists of seven main steps, using several different types of filters. For more details, see “Example: Using the Chroma Keyer Filter.”

Stage 1: Starting with the Color Smoothing Filter Apply the Color Smoothing filter to the clip that you want to key the background out of. This filter improves the quality of chroma keys and reduces the diagonal “stair-step” look that occurs in video clips with areas of high-contrast color.

Use 4:1:1 Color Smoothing with NTSC or PAL DV-25 video sources. (The exception is PAL mini-DV/DVCAM, which uses 4:2:0 color sampling.) Use 4:2:2 Color Smoothing for DVCPRO50 and 8- and 10-bit uncompressed video.
As you add additional key filters, make sure that the Color Smoothing filter remains the first one listed in the video section of the Filters tab.

Stage 2: Applying the Chroma Keyer Filter Now you can apply the Chroma Keyer filter to the clip. Choose a color or level of brightness to key on, and then make adjustments to select the range of color or brightness that most effectively keys out the background, without eliminating the details of your foreground subject, such as hair, fingers, or the edges of clothing. You can also use the Thin/Spread slider to adjust the fringing that appears around your foreground subject, but don’t use it too aggressively.
Tip: Although the Chroma Keyer filter is the fastest and easiest to use, you may find that the Blue and Green Screen filter, in conjunction with the Matte Choker filter, can perform a closer key on certain clips that have more subtle detail around the edges of the foreground subject. For more information on the controls of the Blue and Green Screen filter, see “Key Filters.”

Stage 3: Eliminating Fringing with the Matte Choker Filter After keying out as much of the background as you can without touching the foreground subject, apply the Matte Choker filter to eliminate any faintly remaining blue or green fringing or pixels surrounding the edge of your foreground subject. Using the Matte Choker filter to eliminate this fringing works similarly to using the Thin/Spread slider in the Chroma Keyer. You may find that, for some clips, the Matte Choker filter works better than using more aggressive settings in the Chroma Keyer, giving you a better chance of preserving as much fine detail around the edges of your foreground subject as possible. Drag the Edge Thin slider to the right to remove faint areas of the key color around your foreground subject and to smooth out the rough edges of your key.
A second Matte Choker filter can also be applied to fill holes in the foreground subject that appear as a result of aggressive settings applied to key out the background. By dragging the Edge Thin slider to the right, you can fill in semitranslucent areas in your foreground subject, without changing the background areas you’ve already keyed out. For more information about the Matte Choker filter controls, see “Matte Filters.”

Page 1229 Chapter 72 Keying, Mattes, and Masks

Stage 4: Readjusting the Chroma Keyer Filter’s Settings When keying, additional filters you add usually affect the overall results of previously applied filters, so after applying the Matte Choker, you’ll probably want to readjust the Chroma Keyer filter’s settings to take into account the effect the Matte Choker is having. Changes you make to the Chroma Keyer filter’s settings affect what the Matte Choker does, so go back and forth between the Chroma Keyer and Matte Choker filters until you find a balance of settings that effectively removes the background without eating into your foreground subject.

Stage 5: Desaturating the Key with Spill Suppressor Filters If you have some slight color spill from the background around the edge of your foreground subject, you can use the Enhance control of the Chroma Keyer to desaturate the color spill so that it’s not noticeable.
If you have other regions of color spill that appear within your foreground subject—showing through a sheer dress, for instance—you may want to use the Spill Suppressor - Blue or Spill Suppressor - Green filter to selectively desaturate just the key color so that it’s not noticeable. The spill suppressor filters may affect the overall color of the foreground subject, however, so you may need to use a color correction filter to compensate for this effect.

Stage 6: Cropping Out Elements Using the Garbage Matte Filter If there are “unkeyable elements” other than your foreground subject that you want to eliminate from the frame, such as props, lighting fixtures, or other undesirable objects, you can use one of the Garbage Matte filters to remove those elements. For more information on using Garbage Matte filters, see “Using Mattes to Add or Modify Alpha Channels.”

Stage 7: Color Correcting the Foreground and Background Clips to Match Even if you shot your background and foreground clips to match one another, it’s unlikely the lighting you used matches perfectly. For this reason, it’s usually necessary to color correct either the foreground subject or the background to make sure the two match. For more information on color correction in Final Cut Pro, see “Using Color for Color Correction.”
Tip: Whenshootingvideoyouintendtocompositetogetherusingkeyfilters,it’simportant to make sure that the direction of the lighting matches in both the foreground and background shots. You can color correct for color temperature, relative brightness levels, and contrast, but lighting direction cannot be altered.

Page 1230 Chapter 72 Keying, Mattes, and Masks

Stage 8: Performing Additional Adjustments to the Background Layer Finally, you should spend some time working on the appearance of the background layer. Editing a foreground clip in front of a background clip is just the beginning. There are numerous details you must now consider to make the shot look convincing. For example, the foreground and background of video you shoot in the field are seldom both in focus, so the shot may look more realistic if you put the background out of focus with a blur filter.
You may also need to consider other strategies for making the background look suitably distant, such as adding a translucent gradient layer to create haze over a landscape or adjusting the appearance of the sky. Adding other keyed foreground elements can also make your shot look more interesting and add depth to the shot you’re creating.

Dajen Productions, Santa Barbara, CA
MacPro Two 2.8GHz Quad Core - AJA Kona LHe
FCS 3 OS X 10.6 QT 10


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Howard Ferguson
Re: Good Chroma Key Possible Without Extra Plugins ?
on Oct 22, 2009 at 9:17:04 am

Hi Dave,

Thanks for posting all this helpful instruction !

Howard


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walter biscardi
Re: Good Chroma Key Possible Without Extra Plugins ?
on Oct 22, 2009 at 9:37:39 am

[Howard Ferguson] "Hi Dave,

Thanks for posting all this helpful instruction ! "


As he noted, this is all right out of the manual which is easily accessible in the Help menu of Final Cut Pro. This is one reason why so many of us encourage people to use the Help / Manual of FCP before posting. All you have to do is Search "Chroma Key" in the Manual and you would find everything that Dave posted in about 5 seconds. That is far quicker than any of us can suggest solutions to problems in Final Cut Pro. We're happy to help, but if you want quick answers, always start with the FCP Manual.



Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

"Foul Water, Fiery Serpent" now in Post.

Creative Cow Forum Host:
Apple Final Cut Pro, Apple Motion, Apple Color, AJA Kona, Business & Marketing, Maxx Digital.

Blog!

Twitter!


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Howard Ferguson
Re: Good Chroma Key Possible Without Extra Plugins ?
on Oct 22, 2009 at 7:20:07 pm

Hi Walter,

The manual is very helpful, but the guidance I've received from the experienced folks here in my specific situation is invaluable. I can't thank you enough for your help.

And I'm not quite there yet.
In addition to the overall color tint situation, the mysterious loss of total Opacity is still a mystery- for which the solution remains illusive.

For instance-
There are traces of the underlying images dancing around on the subject's shirt, though it's Opacity is set to 100%.

This is not the case with the Chroma Key filter turned OFF.
In fact, turning off the Chroma Keyer or it's Enable function is the only way to stop it from happening (of the simple ON or OFF functions in the filters window).

Thanks again to all !

Howard Ferguson


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Tom Brooks
Re: Good Chroma Key Possible Without Extra Plugins ?
on Oct 22, 2009 at 7:49:48 pm

It sounds like your key is partially wiping out your subject, meaning the color of the subject is too close to the colors in the green screen. So the keyer is eliminating that part of the image to a degree. If you look at just the matte created by the keyer, you might be able to see that the white part is not completely white. I'm at a loss for the moment. I'd take it to Keylight at this point--in After Effects. Anybody?


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Howard Ferguson
Re: Good Chroma Key Possible Without Extra Plugins ?
on Oct 23, 2009 at 6:31:12 am

Hi Tom,

Thanks again for your response.

That did the trick !
Narrowing the color range in the Chroma Keyer eliminated this problem of loss of Opacity.
Without creating further problems.

Forgive me, but I don't understand what you mean when you say:
"you might be able to see that the white part is not completely white"

Is there a simple way to change the unnatural green tints to a natural image color tone,
without damaging the other color aspects of the image ?

Thanks very much for your help !
There are so many possibilities, it is incredibly helpful to get instruction as to where to begin fixing a particular problem.

(I'm maintaining a thorough record of all of this information for my future reference !)

Howard Ferguson


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Howard Ferguson
Re: Good Chroma Key Possible Without Extra Plugins ?
on Oct 22, 2009 at 8:31:57 am

Hi Tom,

Thanks very much for taking the time from your busy day to respond and help me with this problem !

Yes, the Sequence was in an NTSC DV timeline.

(Intend to shift the whole project to ProRes 411 Proxy (as recommended by a few folks from Apple),
but have been involved in figuring out this Chroma situation out first.)

While still in NTSC DV-
Color Smoothing 411 does move the green border tint slightly to the left.

This is Color Smoothing 411 OFF:




This is Color Smoothing 411 ON:




Let me show you my Filters window,
and Chroma Keyer Color/Sat/Lum settings window-
Before I made these changes you suggest:






Pulling out the bottom sliders on the color, sat, and luma--a little bit, one at a time:

These are the changes I have made:








And this is the resulting Image:



It's moving in the right direction,
I'm happy to learn how I can improve it further.

And even though the enhancement control has left this a bit maroony-
The flesh tones, especially the ears, still have a greenish pallor overall in much of the footage.
(I'm not sure that is coming across in these JPEG screenshots.)




There is an additional issue which has come up during this Chroma process.
The Image is set to 100% Opacity in the Motion controls, but-
The various tracks "behind the front image (top most video track)" are showing through that image to a degree . . .

Hmmm-
Why is that, and how do it fix it back to 100% Opacity "for real" ?

Many thanks again to everyone for your helpful guidance in this situation !

Howard Ferguson


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