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Red .Tifs in sequence bleeding/artifacting

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Timothy Ziegler
Red .Tifs in sequence bleeding/artifacting
on Oct 11, 2009 at 6:40:22 pm

I've seen a couple posts about this problem, but I haven't really found a solution. I'm having trouble with the color red in the client's logos. It's bleeding and artifacting.

I am working in a 720p59.94 ProRes (HQ) sequence. The file itself stemmed from a .EPS that I imported into Photoshop as RGB. Now, I feel like I've tried everything. The logo is not out of spec according to my vectorscope, and pulling back the color does nothing (I tried in Photoshop, FCP and Color), except when it's completely grayscale. I tried rendering out from AfterEffects as both an Animation file and a singl-frame .Tif. I tried slightly bluring it, but that wasn't effective enough.

The problem was most noticeable on my CRT monitors (which are callibrated regularly), especially my HD CRT. It really wasn't perceptable on my computer screen and wasn't as bad on the LCD monitors in our machine room.

So, I'm stumped. I'm working 422, colors are in spec and RGB. Its been a rather embarrassing endevor to tell our client. At the end of the day, I literally had all of our Online guys, our engineer, a graphics guy sitting in my room troubleshooting. I even called in the engineer from a neighboring facility. His solution, "Don't use red." I can't really tell the client to redesign their logo.


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Rafael Amador
Re: Red .Tifs in sequence bleeding/artifacting
on Oct 12, 2009 at 8:31:13 am

Try a bit of Gaussian Blur in the Red channel.
Rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Timothy Ziegler
Re: Red .Tifs in sequence bleeding/artifacting
on Oct 12, 2009 at 1:52:42 pm

Thank you for the response. I just tried to blur the red channel on the tif, in both Photoshop and FCP. Still getting artifacts.

The logo with the biggest problem has whitish stripes as artifacts running in the reds and there is a slight ghosting around the edgeds. In fact, what's really strange to me, If I swing the hue to another color (on only the red graphics) they still have the same issue. The only time it goes away, is when I go completely grey. It's if the channel is tainted or something.

Timothy Ziegler
Editor, Colorist


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Red .Tifs in sequence bleeding/artifacting
on Oct 12, 2009 at 3:27:31 pm

[Timothy Ziegler] "Thank you for the response. I just tried to blur the red channel on the tif, in both Photoshop and FCP. Still getting artifacts. "

Do you know where the vectorscope is located in FCP? Do you have it open? My guess is that your reds are oversaturated in that logo. You HAVE to fix it by bringing down the red saturation, no ifs, ands or buts. I'd use Photoshop to do it.

Never mind that the client wants the brightest red possible. What you have currently is an illegal color. Once you have it tweaked properly, it'll look just fine on TV. People fix oversaturated colors all the time for TV and you never even notice.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Timothy Ziegler
Re: Red .Tifs in sequence bleeding/artifacting
on Oct 12, 2009 at 3:40:15 pm

Yes. I'm aware of where the vector scope is. The internal FCP scopes, my external SDI scopes and Color's internal scopes all read it within broadcast spec. Even after attempting to clamp it with a Broadcast Safe filter in FCP, using the "NTSC Colors" filter in Photoshop, desaturating in FCP and Photoshop--still the issue is still there.

Something of note. Scaling seems to be playing variable. If I don't shrink the Graphic and let it be gigantic in Final Cut, the artifacting is minute and perhaps even acceptable. But even after mocking it to be the size I want, by scaling in Photoshop, the problem is still the same.

Putting the graphic in a 10-bit 1080p sequence and scaling relative to the frame size also appears to make it better (not perfect, however). I just don't want to upscale the footage behind the graphic for the final output.

Timothy Ziegler
Editor, Colorist


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Rafael Amador
Re: Red .Tifs in sequence bleeding/artifacting
on Oct 12, 2009 at 3:46:20 pm

[Timothy Ziegler] "If I don't shrink the Graphic and let it be gigantic in Final Cut,"
That means that you are downscaling the logo a lot in FC, isn't it?
Do it in Photoshop and try to bring it to FC close to the final size.
rafael




http://www.nagavideo.com


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Timothy Ziegler
Re: Red .Tifs in sequence bleeding/artifacting
on Oct 12, 2009 at 3:49:24 pm

Yes. As I said, I've tried scaling in FCP and Photoshop, both yield the same ugly problem.

Timothy Ziegler
Editor, Colorist


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Red .Tifs in sequence bleeding/artifacting
on Oct 12, 2009 at 5:37:43 pm

Glad to know you're checking color saturation. I'd also check the video level on those whites, too.

You may find it tough to get rid of the noise: NTSC has a nasty habit of creating noise at the sharply-defined boundaries between two colors. It happens in white-on-black and vice versa, and it also happens with red & white.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Joey Burnham
Re: Red .Tifs in sequence bleeding/artifacting
on Oct 12, 2009 at 5:41:35 pm

I wonder if this client's logo has EVER looked good in NTSC. Many times have I had to convince the client to use another color. I avoid red like the plague when I know it has to be keyed.


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Timothy Ziegler
Re: Red .Tifs in sequence bleeding/artifacting
on Oct 12, 2009 at 6:26:52 pm

Yeah. I'm not sure. It was a last minute decision to add these logos. And they are technically logos of partner of the client. So by the time it came from the agency from the client from the client's partner, I'm sure it became a game of telephone. There is no longer an agency art director on this and they decided not to budget a graphics guy (since this is a rehash of an older spot). So, I've asked my producer to see about getting a different graphic, but by the time it gets through all those channels, we're holding up our deliverables and missing our trafficking date.

Timothy Ziegler
Editor, Colorist


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Red .Tifs in sequence bleeding/artifacting
on Oct 12, 2009 at 8:44:19 pm

Well, you know the old phrase:

"You can get your video production done well. You can get it done cheap." You can get it done fast. Pick any two."

Sounds like somebody has some pickin' to do.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Timothy Ziegler
Re: Red .Tifs in sequence bleeding/artifacting
on Oct 12, 2009 at 9:22:59 pm

Love that phrase. Can we send a memo to the agencies?


Timothy Ziegler
Editor, Colorist


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