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Can you get 24p to look like 24pA?

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Ryan Jones
Can you get 24p to look like 24pA?
on Oct 11, 2009 at 7:32:38 am

Hello. I'm using the Panasonic DVX100 B and have inadvertently shot a one tape in 24p, and another in 24pA . Clips from both are to be used in the same short film.

I recently learned in the forums that you must use two different methods to get both versions to conform to true 24P. My question is, if I go through the steps necessary to do this will both versions be of the same quality? If not, is there a way to get the 24p footage to look like the 24pA? Or will the look between the two clips be minimal, and I needn't bother? Thanks. This is my first time using the DVX100. I appreciate any and all bits of wisdom.

Ryan


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Can you get 24p to look like 24pA?
on Oct 11, 2009 at 2:59:41 pm

Once you remove pulldown from both sources, you will have 24p media.


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Rob Grauert
Re: Can you get 24p to look like 24pA?
on Oct 11, 2009 at 5:28:03 pm

Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I was always under the impression that the difference between 24p and 24pA was the cameras method of adding pull-down so that the 24fps will fill the 29.97fps of tape.

Removing advanced pulldown from the 24pA footage can be done in Final Cut, but I believe standard pull-down must be removed in Cinema Tools when working with 24p

Robert J. Grauert, Jr.
http://www.robgrauert.com


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Alan Okey
Re: Can you get 24p to look like 24pA?
on Oct 12, 2009 at 12:19:44 am

[Rob Grauert] "Removing advanced pulldown from the 24pA footage can be done in Final Cut, but I believe standard pull-down must be removed in Cinema Tools when working with 24p "

Exactly. The main difference is that removing pulldown from 24p (shot over 29.97i) is more labor intensive, which is a nicer way of saying that it's more of a pain in the ass.

Ultimately both sources will end up as true 24p, but removing pulldown in Cinema Tools is a process that needs human intervention and guidance, unlike the automatic pulldown removal from 24pA by Final Cut.

The upside of this is that when you're done, you'll be much more familiar with the process and you'll have a newfound appreciation of 24pA. And think of it this way: you'll be far ahead of all of the other people who can't begin to understand what pulldown is or how it works and routinely put out stuttering, crappy video due to ignorance.


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Ryan Jones
Re: Can you get 24p to look like 24pA?
on Oct 12, 2009 at 2:08:46 am

I like the way you think. Gotta earn those stripes. Thanks everyone for your answers. Explains everything. Cinema Tools here I come.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Can you get 24p to look like 24pA?
on Oct 13, 2009 at 3:23:39 pm

[Ryan Jones] "Cinema Tools here I come."

Compressor has a reverse telecine option that works pretty automagically and does a very nice job. You can also do it in batches.

You will be transcoding the footage, though.

Jeremy


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Can you get 24p to look like 24pA?
on Oct 12, 2009 at 3:06:43 am

The only problem with 24pA is that you are stuck editing in the dv codec and can't capture to something with greater bit depth in hardware. Otherwise, it's a great idea. Panasonic's implementation of pull-down in 720p cameras is equally and more impressive.


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Tom Brooks
Re: Can you get 24p to look like 24pA?
on Oct 12, 2009 at 4:06:53 pm

Good point. Is this covered in that "When to Stay Native" article? Using baseband video (SDI) to get out of DV on capture is necessary at times, but it has more to do with workflows combining graphics and effects with the footage. Do you have an example that illustrates why you'd shoot DV at 24p and capture to ProRes or uncompressed via SDI?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Can you get 24p to look like 24pA?
on Oct 13, 2009 at 3:27:04 pm

[Tom Brooks] "Is this covered in that "When to Stay Native" article?"

I don't know. Do you have a link to that?

[Tom Brooks] " but it has more to do with workflows combining graphics and effects with the footage."

And color correction. The dv codec is ok for acquisition only (and just ok, it's not that good in my opnion), but editing and color correction, everything gets trashed. Graphics especially.

[Tom Brooks] "Do you have an example that illustrates why you'd shoot DV at 24p and capture to ProRes or uncompressed via SDI?"

My question is why wouldn't you? Just for the rs422 deck speed alone. Capturing via firewire is hellacious, let alone all the other quality reasons.



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Rob Grauert
Re: Can you get 24p to look like 24pA?
on Oct 13, 2009 at 4:10:24 pm

What are the benefits of rs422? I've seen this interface on RAIDs and decks before, but the gear is too expensive for me, so I've never encountered it. A google search has revealed to me that it's a way for the computer to communicate with another piece of equipment. Is that pretty much all it is - a way for devices to communicate quickly, and over long distances if needed?

Robert J. Grauert, Jr.
http://www.robgrauert.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Can you get 24p to look like 24pA?
on Oct 13, 2009 at 4:27:45 pm

[Rob Grauert] "What are the benefits of rs422?"

In this case, it's a protocol that allows FCP capture cards to control VTRs. It is frame accurate and much more reliable (and fast) than a firewire protocol. RS422 just does deck control/tc while firewire is doing audio/video/deck control/tc and any other metadata.

Jeremy


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Rob Grauert
Re: Can you get 24p to look like 24pA?
on Oct 13, 2009 at 4:51:41 pm

Ohhh, I get it. Thanks, Jeremy.

Robert J. Grauert, Jr.
http://www.robgrauert.com


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Tom Brooks
Re: Can you get 24p to look like 24pA?
on Oct 13, 2009 at 4:44:55 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "[Tom Brooks] "Is this covered in that "When to Stay Native" article?"

I don't know. Do you have a link to that? "


http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/when_to_stay_native.html


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Can you get 24p to look like 24pA?
on Oct 13, 2009 at 4:56:10 pm

Looks like it is. Look at the DV section copy/paste for easy access:

DV/DVCAM/DVCPRO

These DV 25 formats would normally be edited natively, just like you probably have been for years. What we have now is another alternative for when DV source needs to be composited or color corrected extensively (like through Color). When extensive color correction or compositing is required the additional color space and lower compression gained by using ProRes 422 might make sense.Although we move from 4:1:1 colorspace to 4:2:2 you don't create any more information just because you convert to ProRes 422! Going ProRes 422 stems the losses, so to speak, and gives more calculating room for the compositing or color correction.

If you do convert, the perfect path would be to play out via SDI and capture that directly to ProRes 422, as above, as most professional decks with SDI output from this format do color smoothing to recreate the missing color information on the SDI output. This is a big benefit when compositing or color correcting. We can fake this by adding a 4:1:1 Color Smoothing filter to the clips before batch exporting to ProRes 422 in Standard Definition.

Verdict: Native most of the time, otherwise either capture via SDI directly to ProRes 422 or Batch Convert to ProRes 422 after capture with the 4:1:1 Color Smoothing Filter applied. (Folks in PAL markets you're really going to have to spring for the deck rental as there's no equivalent Color Smoothing filter for 4:2:0. In PAL only DVCPRO support 4:1:1.)


Jeremy


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