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MultiCam - Multiple Clips for the Same Angle

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Pravin Chottera
MultiCam - Multiple Clips for the Same Angle
on Oct 7, 2009 at 10:20:36 pm

So on a shoot, I had two tape based cameras that were jam synced and changed tapes twice on each camera (total of three tapes), leaving me with three clips for each camera. Now I want to multicam edit, and I can't figure out how to combine the six clips (three for each camera) into two angles (one for each camera).

If that was unclear, basically I want to combine multiple clips into the same angle.

If there a way to do that? If not, is there a workaround?


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David Roth Weiss
Re: MultiCam - Multiple Clips for the Same Angle
on Oct 7, 2009 at 10:40:51 pm

You simply must get yourself a copy of the app called Pluraleyes. Try it out for free, and be sure to follow the simple instructions. Its automatically does exactly what you need in just seconds and creates a multiclip as well.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Pravin Chottera
Re: MultiCam - Multiple Clips for the Same Angle
on Oct 8, 2009 at 4:13:54 pm

I tried using Pluraleyes, and for some reason it still creates a new angle out of every clip.

On my shoot, I also had two tapeless cameras running the entire time, so I have two long clips that span the entire event. That gives me eight clips in total (two clips from the two tapeless cameras and six clips from the two tape cameras).

Pluraleyes made a multiclip with eight angles, so the six clips from the tape cameras jump around the screen. It's really annoying. Am I doing something wrong? I am working on Final Cut 7.

Thanks for all your help!


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David Roth Weiss
Re: MultiCam - Multiple Clips for the Same Angle
on Oct 8, 2009 at 4:33:46 pm

[Pravin Chottera] "I tried using Pluraleyes, and for some reason it still creates a new angle out of every clip. "

[Pravin Chottera] "Pluraleyes made a multiclip with eight angles, so the six clips from the tape cameras jump around the screen. It's really annoying. Am I doing something wrong? I am working on Final Cut 7.
"


It sounds like you didn't follow the Pluraleyes directions.

You are supposed to put all the clips from each camera angle onto one track. So, if the C-camera got started and stopped 10 times, you need to put all ten of those clips on, let's say, track 3.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Bruce Sharpe
Re: MultiCam - Multiple Clips for the Same Angle
on Oct 8, 2009 at 5:54:19 pm

Final Cut treats each clip as a separate angle. Annoying, but that's the way it is. I work around it by creating reference movies from the tracks that PluralEyes syncs and making a multiclip from them (again with PluralEyes). See this blog post for details.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: MultiCam - Multiple Clips for the Same Angle
on Oct 7, 2009 at 11:37:48 pm

Why not just make three separate multiclips?


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Pravin Chottera
Re: MultiCam - Multiple Clips for the Same Angle
on Oct 8, 2009 at 4:17:09 pm

I had considered that, but I also had two tapeless cameras on my shoot, so I have two clips that span the entire event and six clips divided between the two tape cameras.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: MultiCam - Multiple Clips for the Same Angle
on Oct 8, 2009 at 4:36:28 pm

Cool, so watch this and pay attention to the part where I start talking about sequenceLiner, the clips will come in in sync in a timeline, you can then export each track as a new movie and use that as your multiclip masters.

http://www.macvideo.tv/editing/features/index.cfm?articleId=3200691

Jeremy



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David Roth Weiss
Re: MultiCam - Multiple Clips for the Same Angle
on Oct 8, 2009 at 4:57:31 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Cool, so watch this and pay attention to the part where I start talking about sequenceLiner, the clips will come in in sync in a timeline, you can then export each track as a new movie and use that as your multiclip masters. "

Jeremy,

First, you do a great job live in front of an audience... Great demo of sequenceLiner.

However, I think you may find Pluraleyes even faster and possibly as, if not even more valuable. It not only automatically syncs everything, using audio to do it, it also creates a multiclip automatically as well. Try it and let me know what you think.

David

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: MultiCam - Multiple Clips for the Same Angle
on Oct 8, 2009 at 5:05:15 pm

Thanks, David.

I acutally spoke with the developer at NAB. Seems to be a great product and Andreas Kiel who wrote sequenceLiner also helped out the PluralEyes folks. It's one big happy family.

The nice thing about sequenceLiner, especially if you have matching timecode, is that you don't need the audio to sync. It's very fast, very easy, and dare I say, free.

Jeremy


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David Roth Weiss
Re: MultiCam - Multiple Clips for the Same Angle
on Oct 8, 2009 at 5:21:23 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "The nice thing about sequenceLiner, especially if you have matching timecode, is that you don't need the audio to sync. It's very fast, very easy, and dare I say, free"

Free is great!!! The thing about Pluraleyes is that it syncs audio and/or video that may have no timecode or other ways to sync whatsoever. So imagine, just for sake of extreme example, that you had five cameras and twenty sound people running around with handheld digital recorders, all grabbing stuff at will, all turning cameras and sound recorders on and off at random. As long as each camera had sound running, in theory, Pluraleyes would sync it all up automatically and create a multiclip.

BTW, I'm not at all certain what would happen to all the completely isolated/soloed audio that had nothing whatsoever to do with anything else on any camera or any other audio recorder, so there's lot's of stuff remaining to wrap my brain around. But, I'm sure you'll acknowledge, in theory, the syncing by audio paradigm does have some very cool ramifications.

In summary, I think both Pluraleyes and SequenceLiner are way cool.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: MultiCam - Multiple Clips for the Same Angle
on Oct 8, 2009 at 5:26:03 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "The thing about Pluraleyes is that it syncs audio and/or video that may have no timecode or other ways to sync whatsoever. "

Oh I know, I get it. But that's some processing time.

Jeremy


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David Roth Weiss
Re: MultiCam - Multiple Clips for the Same Angle
on Oct 8, 2009 at 5:42:54 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I get it. But that's some processing time. "

You would be surprised... Syncing in Pluraleyes is miraculously done in just seconds.

In any case, I'm going to create a very extreme example for a test. If it works I'll post here as a mini-tutorial.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: MultiCam - Multiple Clips for the Same Angle
on Oct 8, 2009 at 5:49:54 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "You would be surprised... Syncing in Pluraleyes is miraculously done in just seconds. "

Then something must have changed as the demo I saw by the developer took some time, especially when the timeline is long.

Jeremy


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Pravin Chottera
Re: MultiCam - Multiple Clips for the Same Angle
on Oct 8, 2009 at 5:58:58 pm

So I started from scratch, and made sure that all the clips from CamC were on the same track, etc., and Pluraleyes still made a bunch of different angles instead of the four I am looking for.

It is also taking a long time for Pluraleyes to prepare the data and analyze it. I am working over a network, so that may slow it down a little, and each clip is pretty long (.5 hrs for each of the tape clips, and 1.5 hours for the two tapeless clips) but it takes more 45 minutes Pluraleyes to work through everything.

I'm using the trail version, just to see if it worked before I buy it, but I don't think that should affect anything.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: MultiCam - Multiple Clips for the Same Angle
on Oct 8, 2009 at 6:17:36 pm

Pravin, please try sequenceLiner. You'd be done by now and it's free.

http://www.spherico.com/filmtools/

Jeremy


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David Roth Weiss
Re: MultiCam - Multiple Clips for the Same Angle
on Oct 8, 2009 at 7:19:07 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Pravin, please try sequenceLiner. You'd be done by now and it's free. "

I'm going to give it a shot too...

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Bruce Sharpe
Re: MultiCam - Multiple Clips for the Same Angle
on Oct 8, 2009 at 7:40:46 pm

The original poster's question is not about how to sync the clips but how to get a multiclip with one angle per camera instead of one angle per clip.

Since the cameras were all jam-synched he can use SequenceLiner or PluralEyes to do the sync. And he seems to be past that. The problem is that Final Cut treats each clip as a separate angle in the multiclip. He wants three angles, corresponding to three cameras, but he's getting eight angles, one for each of the clips.

The only way I know around this is to take the synced sequence and make a QuickTime reference movie for each camera. Then use those ref movies as the input to a multiclip. It's a little fiddly but it works well.


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Herb Sevush
Re: MultiCam - Multiple Clips for the Same Angle
on Oct 8, 2009 at 4:08:55 pm

Pravin -

Final cut Pro is a clip based multi-cam editor -- 1 multi clip for each set of camera clips. You can't combine different clips from the same camera in one multi-clip. With your project I would make a separate multi-clip for each set of camera tapes.

The only work around is to create new files that combine all clips from each camera into 1 new mov file. When I do that I create a timeline with each of the cameras laid out on separate tracks but in sync with one another - Track 1 has all three clips from camera 1 and then track 2 has all three clips from camera 2 laid out in sync to track 1. Then export a separate movie for each of the tracks and use those new files in a single multi-clip.

Except when working with p2 files from Firestore Drives I don't think this extra work is worth it.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Pravin Chottera
Re: MultiCam - Multiple Clips for the Same Angle
on Oct 8, 2009 at 4:28:39 pm

Like I said to Jeremy Garchow, I also have two clips from two tapeless cameras that span the entire event.

I think I may just export new .movs for my two tape cameras.

Thanks for the suggestion though!


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David Roth Weiss
Re: MultiCam - Multiple Clips for the Same Angle
on Oct 8, 2009 at 4:38:20 pm

[Herb Sevush] "You can't combine different clips from the same camera in one multi-clip."

Pluraleyes can do this Herb. You should try it out.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Herb Sevush
Re: MultiCam - Multiple Clips for the Same Angle
on Oct 8, 2009 at 5:46:24 pm

DRW -

I just tried the demo of Pluraleyes and while it sunc my material perfectly it doesn't overcome the FCP limitations as concerns multiple clips from the same camera on one timeline - what it does is split it up into separate multi-clips, albeit it does it automatically, which is handy.

It's a nice little tool but most of my shoots are well engineered, with identical time code sent to each camera, so it doesn't have much appeal to me.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Andreas Kiel
Re: MultiCam - Multiple Clips for the Same Angle
on Oct 19, 2009 at 1:17:18 am

Hi all,

I jump in too late. But it may help to understand the problem if it will happen to someone at another time.

I'm the author of sequenceLiner, so let me say some words about it.
The app assumes that you're running TOD TC or free run TC while recording. It doesn't matter whether you synched the cameras to each other or not - as long as you don't shut down the camera or change batteries. A real helpful thing would be to have one common sync point/clapper for all cams at one point.
It's a pretty easy principle - after you captured or transfered the files. Just put all clips which belong to one angle into a bin. Take external audio - if you want - in another bin.
Then create a sequence which matches your final settings and export the the project as XML.
SequenceLiner will interpret each bin as a track and lay down all clips in the according track based upon its timecode, the resulting XML will be imported into FCP.
Now in the sequence take one track as a 'master' and go to your sync point (or find one) and add a marker or just make a note of the frame number, do the same thing with all other tracks.
Then match the markers by moving all clips of the tracks to match the master marker. Another option is - as Jeremy did in his presentation - to write down the frame differences of the track/angles and type them into the offset settings of sequenceLiner add re-run the export. This will give you a complete in sync sequence within seconds.
From there you can either export each track as ref movie or self-contained to create a new 'master tape' which can be used to create a huge multiclip. You can also trim the overlaps of the clips (clip by clip) manually and create multiclips step by step using the 'In' option for sync.

The PluralEyes app uses a totally different approach - which by the way it is totally cool, as it handles audio delays in way I've never seen before. It uses audio to sync the files and automatically creates multiclips. So no TC needed at all.
The setup is pretty similar though you start with the clips in a sequence instead of bins. The advantage is that you get ready to go clips as long you got a decent good audio on each camera.

With Jeremy's example that wouldn't have been possible to have a 'some kind' common audio and so he decided to go the sequenceLiner way. In other cases it will be easier to use PluralEyes especially with no useful TC.

As Jeremy mentioned I know Bruce from Singular Software and we are working on common products.

A totally different option starts during the setup of the shooting. You may take a ALL601 for each camera. Jam sync those to each other (and the audio HDR) connect them either to the Lanc of your camera or the TC Out or the TC In (you can use any kind of TC including record run) or the Audio In.
This little box records each start stop of the camera into a file a bit similar to an ALE. When work is done you connect those boxes to your machine via USB and transfer those log files (there is one per camera, no matter how many tapes you used). Then capture/transfer your files. For each camera create create a bin as you normally would do. Then export each bin as XML.
From there use my auxApp to import both the log file and the matching bin XML. The app will compare the log file's TOD and the cam's source TC and write an AUX TC to the QT movies, which will automatically update in FCP. From there you can go to create multiclips based upon AUX TC.

If you used the Audio option there is a great tool from VideoToolShed to convert LTC to QT TC. This allows to sync the clips based upon LTC within FCP.
I know Bouke from VideoToolShed pretty well for quite a long time. As Jeremy said 'one big happy family' -- something for everybody.

Finally not to forget Philip Hodgett's Sync'n Link, which can be helpful here as well.

And not to forget the good old Lockit to sync the cams, hmm sometimes cables are enough to sync TCs of the cameras. Many options to save time in postpro.

Regards
Andreas

Spherico
http://www.spherico.com/filmtools


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cheyo Masters
Re: MultiCam - Multiple Clips for the Same Angle
on Nov 23, 2009 at 3:43:36 pm

Thank you for creating such great little app.

Does anybody know what I can use to link the audio and video (aka merge) tracks that come out of SequenceLiner?
My video and audio is not linked and I know this is a feature that has not been implemented yet but i was just wondering if anybody know of another plug in or a trick in final cut to link all of clips up. (merge)

Thanks


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