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Christopher Glavan
24pa ntsc workflow
on Oct 3, 2009 at 5:36:39 am

Hi all,

I just completed my first multi-cam wedding shoot and I have some questions about my workflow on FCP 6, specifically ingesting the footage. I use a GY-HD100 but for this shoot I also borrowed my dad's DVX-100BP. I wasn't sure about shooting in 30p since the HD100 shoots HDV sd30p and the DVX-100 does not; so I chose to shoot 24pa. Here's what I've done thus far:

1. In FCP, log and capture 24pa footage via batch capture (dv ntsc 48khz anamorphic)
2. Export batch list
3. In Cinema Tools, create database and import test clip (proxy clip- not the original)

From here I get a little confused. My 24pa footage was captured at 29.97 fps- interlaced- so I should be able to conform it to 24 fps or 23.98 fps. However the TC rate for my clip is 30 NDF and when I conform, the clip analysis shows me that timecode for this clip is still counting 29.97 fps.

Here, finally, are my questions:

1. Do I change the TC rate of the clip from 30 NDF to 24 fps and then conform, or do I reverse telecine?
2. Once I have my clip back to 23.98 fps like it was originally recorded, how do I remove the interlacing?

Thank you in advance for reading this exhaustive thing and for your help!

Christopher Glavan
Reel Impressions Media


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Michael Sacci
Re: 24pa ntsc workflow
on Oct 3, 2009 at 5:53:12 am

I'm almost positive the DVX does shoots at 30p.

There is not reason to use Cinema Tools on the 24p footage, if you shoot 24pA you can capture it from the tape as 23.98p. (Remove Advanced Pulldown)

But if you are going to edit with the JVC you probably want to leave it at 29.97.

So how are you planning to edit this 30p timeline? You can edit the 24p on a 30p timeline better then you can edit 30p on a 24p timeline. But needless to say you should always match framerates anytime you are going to edit two cameras like this.



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Christopher Glavan
Re: 24pa ntsc workflow
on Oct 3, 2009 at 10:17:52 am

Yes the DVX-100 shoots at 30p. My concern was not the frame rate, but rather the codec and resolution differences between the two cameras. I want them to look as close as possible, and it's easier to make the HD100 look like the DVX-100 than the other way around.

I should clarify my OP. I shot 24pa in both cameras. I've already logged and captured everything at 29.97 fps. I want it back in its original 24 fps format, without interlacing. I have multiple audio sources recorded at 24 fps, so I do not want to edit at 29.97 or 30 fps, as it will cause more headaches for me in post. What is the best method for conforming 29.97 to 23.98 given my process above, and what is the best method for de-interlacing the footage?

Thanks!

Christopher Glavan
Reel Impressions Media


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Michael Sacci
Re: 24pa ntsc workflow
on Oct 3, 2009 at 6:12:53 pm

Okay miss understood when you said the JVC shoots sd30p, thought that is what you had it set on. But framerate is actually the most import thing to match up between cameras. Codecs are easier to match up in post then framerates.

If you shot the footage as 24pA the footage is progressive and does not need to be de-interlaced. You need to remove the Advanced pulldown, which should have been done during the capture. But in FCP under Tools > Remove Advanced Pulldown will get your DVX footage to 23.98p. I have never tried it on footage shoot with only camera but if the JVC adds a 2:3:3:2 pulldown, (which is the advanced) it should work. For working with video it needs to be 23.98 and not 24 fps.

Now as for as the TC is concerned, since it has to be 29.97 to record to tape, the TC will be 29.97 and after you remove the pull down it will still count up to 29 then 00 but there will be missing numbers because of the removed frames. So you will see something like ;00, ;01, ;03, ;04, ;06 ... nothing you can do about this, even if you captured it as 23.98 the TC would be like this, no way around that.



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Tom Brooks
Re: 24pa ntsc workflow
on Oct 3, 2009 at 6:21:27 pm

As Michael says, your step 1 is the wrong choice. Any camera that shoots 24pA should be captured via DV NTSC 23.98 Adv. Pulldown Removal. This Easy Setup will remove pulldown in real time during capture. If the DVX and the JVC did indeed record 24pA, that's the correct setup. No need for Cinema Tools or conform of any kind. Try removing Adv Pulldown after capture. Tools>Remove Advanced Pulldown.


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Billy Morocco
Re: 24pa ntsc workflow
on Jun 8, 2010 at 2:14:51 pm

Hi,

This post has been helpful, but I wonder if I can add a follow-up. I just used a DVX100a for the first time, and went the route of Removing Pulldown on Capture.

Now I needed to get this out for QT deliverable (did not know that when I started, - was for a wknd contest).

I've used the HVX at 23.98 and thought I'd just export. But that, clearly, didn't work. So to ADD BACK the pulldown...

I printed to Tape with a deck. and also followed the COmpressor method.

My question is, when people on this forum refer to "you'll be able to add the pulldown back" - is there something in FCP, itself that does this? Or did I do what needed to be done?

For the future: is it in fact OKAY to just import the 24pA footage at 29.97, and edit away? I could see the duped frames so convinced everyone that we HAD to do the pulldown.

Also - if using the DVX at 30p - what is the capture preset for that? I'll search the forums for this one.

I don't have a hardware card.

Thanks a million for all the help available here.
Bill



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Tom Brooks
Re: 24pa ntsc workflow
on Jun 8, 2010 at 3:39:14 pm

[Billy Morocco] "Now I needed to get this out for QT deliverable (did not know that when I started, - was for a wknd contest).

I've used the HVX at 23.98 and thought I'd just export. But that, clearly, didn't work. So to ADD BACK the pulldown... "


For a Quicktime deliverable, I'd normally keep it 23.98 unless the client or playback engineer requests otherwise. When you do need to output to tape with pulldown added back in, FCP will do that for you via the Firewire output. Pulldown pattern is set in System Settings/Playback control. For final playback from tape the correct pattern is 2:3:2:3. That brings up your other question:

[Billy Morocco] "or the future: is it in fact OKAY to just import the 24pA footage at 29.97, and edit away? I could see the duped frames so convinced everyone that we HAD to do the pulldown. "

No, that's not OK because the 24pA footage uses the 2:3:3:2 pulldown pattern. That pattern does not look normal for playback. It's intended to be removed for the edit. Upon output, the normal 2:3:2:3 pattern is added back in. You did right to remove advanced pulldown for the edit.

Look for this section in the FCP manual:
Using an AG-DVX100 NTSC Camcorder
with Advanced Pull-Down


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Billy Morocco
Re: 24pa ntsc workflow
on Jun 8, 2010 at 4:33:47 pm

Tom,

Thanks, I wanted to have that back-up about the future work. The person who shot this footage edits on FCE, and insisted that they "always just edit" and have never had problems.
I said that they are remarkably lucky, cuz if you try to edit on a duped frame... that would be bad.

Now about the first question. Yes, I assumed I could just export to a QT that plays 23.98. That's what I've done with P2 (24pN) fooage.

But the quicktime files stuttered A LOT. is there something I am missing?

both the clips and the Sequence were matched 23.98.

Thanks.


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Billy Morocco
Re: 24pa ntsc workflow
on Jun 8, 2010 at 4:47:26 pm

I'll be damned...

The very next post I happened to read (which was about Mastering, not 24pA) was answered by David Weiss with a point to the Sequence->Settings.

So here is where my problem came from. My Timebase is 23.98, but I am set up to export DV - NTSC.(pic attached, I hope).



So what compressor settings should I use? Can I just export as DVCPROHD 24?

I've never really had to work on this end. I have so far exported in whatever I edited in (except when using RED footage once).

Thanks if you will back me up/clarify this.


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Tom Brooks
Re: 24pa ntsc workflow
on Jun 8, 2010 at 5:19:10 pm

You're losing me a little in combining references to the DVX-100A and the HVX. My understanding is that your current project is on the DVX-100A, which means it's DV. Those sequence settings would be correct for material captured from DV 24pA source with pulldown removed. You can export a 23.98 Quicktime file from that sequence in the DV codec--no pulldown added. Whether the motion looks good to you in that file is mostly dependent on how you handled camera motion at the shoot and, of course, it's subject to your taste.

You would not want to export Quicktime Conversion to DVCProHD 24p from that sequence. That would up-convert your footage and you'd need to use Compressor to do that.

Correct me if I misunderstand your intent.
- T


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Billy Morocco
Re: 24pa ntsc workflow
on Jun 8, 2010 at 7:03:07 pm

Tom,

Thanks for continuing with me on this. I'll stick with the issue, which was shot with the DVX100a set to 24pA.
I have the easy set-up that includes the Advanced Pulldown.
Sequence settings include Advanced Pulldown.

I captured with Adv Pulldown Removal.

The export to QT stutter and flicker even on locked-down shots. Even just someone talking.

I don't have my scratch disk here or I would try it again. But I do remember that the info window for QT showed Framerate: 24, and sometimes 24.xx.

I don't know if that helps. I will do another export when I get home tonight and perhaps investigate further.

Bill


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Tom Brooks
Re: 24pa ntsc workflow
on Jun 8, 2010 at 9:08:24 pm

Can't really tell without seeing it, Bill. I don't see a glaring problem with your method. Maybe you could post a few seconds of the offending video.


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Billy Morocco
Re: 24pa ntsc workflow
on Jun 9, 2010 at 1:39:24 am

Tom,

Thanks so much, again.

I just did another export to QT, and... it plays fine. Must've been an overheated graphics-card glitch, maybe?

The QT info does fluctuate between 23 and 24.61 - I did not recall seeing that with 24pN footage.

Also... under Sequence-> Settings -> Advanced I see that the export is set to 23.976 (fine) but it is also set to Interlaced... Should that be changed when doing an export with this footage?



Anyway thanks again. I was doing this for a 48hr contest and was literally rendering and messing with Compressor in the car. Thanks to these forums, I knew I had followed the procedure for Capture... and my problems didn't fit any of the problems I was perceiving.

Thanks to you, I am confident, again, that QT can play 24frames/ps.

Now just waiting for that 64 bit upgrade.


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Tom Brooks
Re: 24pa ntsc workflow
on Jun 9, 2010 at 2:24:33 am

Bill,
No, you don't need to change that setting where it says interlaced. I'm not sure of the explanation for that, but it doesn't apply, as long as the sequence settings are 23.98 and Field Dominance is None. I don't mess with those internal settings in the Sequence Settings/ Compressor/Advanced dialog.

The frame rate of 23.976 is the exact number it should be. When FCP mentions 23.98, it's merely shorthand for 23.976.

Quicktime Player should report 23.98 under "FPS," but will vary some under "Playing FPS." The player is not bound to maintain a rigid frame rate like Final Cut does to maintain format specs.

Does your exported QT movie appear to be the correct aspect on playback? If not, hit Command-J and change Conform Aperture to Clean or Production.
- Tom



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Billy Morocco
Re: 24pa ntsc workflow
on Jun 9, 2010 at 2:52:06 am

Tom,

Thanks. The QT Export shows as 720x480. That Conform box is unchecked.

When I check Clean it thins to 640x480

And production thins to 655x480. I have to admit, I wasn't aware of those controls.

As I said. the movie looks okay. I am attaching a clip of the credits - where I do notice some stuttering (but I am not on a Broadcast Monitor). Is this within the normal parameters?

Note: I'm not sure this will be at all indicative. I will check on a good external display when in the office.

Let me describe what I saw on Sunday:

In the QT export I was seeing large, full screen jitters, like a quick freeze and then the player caught up to itself. Like shuttling through a timeline or

almost like the BLINK filter... but the audio was not stuttering. This is what made me think it was some frame rate issue.











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Tom Brooks
Re: 24pa ntsc workflow
on Jun 8, 2010 at 4:51:34 pm

[Billy Morocco] "But the quicktime files stuttered A LOT. is there something I am missing? "

Not that I'm seeing. But 24p has limitations to what you can live with in terms of certain types of camera motion. Pans can look stuttery if they're too fast. Could it be that? I would also stay away from faster shutter speeds and I've suspected but never really confirmed that flickery light sources like mercury or sodium vapor can yield a bad look on 24p.


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