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Henry Bateman
HD Online or SD Offline / 24p or 25i?
on Oct 2, 2009 at 8:51:50 pm

Hi,

I've had a read around but am still a bit unsure what to do. Have shot on F900, HDCAM @ 24p and start digitizing in 3 days. (have 79 tapes so need to get it right first time!)

As I was expecting to be be posting in a facility in London i hadn't given the details too much thought before shooting but now as the budget and time frame have just been hugely reduced, it's down to me to cut.

I'm hiring in a deck and MacPro w/ kona card to capture for a few days but as we're very tight on cash and probably going to be editing on a G5 or maybe even powerbook (!) but as it's all last minute i still don't know what i'll be given to edit with!

Should I down-convert within the deck to 25i and capture it at DVCAM or HDV, offline and then do a final conform in a post house later (when we have more money) back to 24p? Will this cause problems? What settings in the deck and FCP should i use?

What speed and connection of drives would you recommend and what RAID setup? Is FW800 ok?

I hope someone can help me get my head around this whole picture in the next couple of days as i'm a bit overwhelmed by it all at the moment... can't see the wood for the trees!

Many thanks

Henry


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Eric Johnson
Re: HD Online or SD Offline / 24p or 25i?
on Oct 2, 2009 at 10:58:08 pm

Most important: Keep it all at 24 if you can. Did you shoot 24 24 or 23.98 24? You can either use the offline RT (384x216 35% Photo jpeg @ 24 or 23.98) in FCS2, or use the Pro Res (Proxy) in FCS3.

If you are using the offline RT then you get about a GB/hr of footage @ 23.98, probably the same at 24.

I haven't used the Pro Res (Proxy) but it's a 1080 frame at about 2-4 MB/s, which is around 10 GB/hr on avg if you are comparing to DV which is 3.4 MB/s and almost exactly 10GB/hr.

Do you know what you will be finishing to at the end? There are other workflows, but I would avoid DV if you can, especially DV at 23.98(24) because it's not a true SMPTE TC, so there is a huge potential of extra work during the finishing process. There is a lot of 1-3 frame slipping during the online of 23.98DV to 1080Psf23.98.

The Photo Jpeg you could probably edit on a FW400, it's crazy small, so FW800 is great. Pro Res (Proxy), based on data rate could also be done on a FW400 so if you are looking at going with FW800 drives, both would be great on one of those. And if you are looking at a 2 drive RAID enclosure then you will not be wanting for speed or space in either situation.


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Henry Bateman
Re: HD Online or SD Offline / 24p or 25i?
on Oct 3, 2009 at 10:09:04 pm

Hi Eric,

Thanks for getting back to me. I shot at 24p not 23.98, as originally we were going to print to film although with the recent budget slash it looks like we will now just be delivering for theatrical via a digital screen release on hard drive and on HDCAM and DigiBeta for TV although having said that if the money comes in as hoped we'll still do a print.

The Pro Res sounds good to me as it would be nice to see a bit more quality on screen whilst editing compared to the jpeg and at 10gb/hr it's not going to break the bank with hard drives even at FW800.

I'm presuming that this drive will do the trick, it seems to me to be a 2 drive RAID enclosure am i right or got the wrong end of the stick?

http://www.att.is/product_info.php?cPath=224_226_215&products_id=4711&osCsi...

(it's an Icelandic website as i'm cutting in Iceland and to be honest am very limited by the choice of drives for sale on this island!)

If i'm now going to capture with the pro res proxy do i then play out from the deck as normal in full HD and use the Kona card to down-convert or do i use FCP? I always get confused by the sheer choice of settings... can you help?

Thanks again for all your advice, sorry if my questions seem daft but want to get it right first time and haven't worked with down-coverted 24p HD before.

Best

Henry




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gary adcock
Re: HD Online or SD Offline / 24p or 25i?
on Oct 5, 2009 at 3:37:24 pm

[Henry Bateman] "Thanks for getting back to me. I shot at 24p not 23.98"

24P is considered 23.98 from an NTSC camera.

24.0 materials have issues being viewed on NTSC centric displays


gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL


http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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Eric Johnson
Re: HD Online or SD Offline / 24p or 25i?
on Oct 5, 2009 at 5:15:28 pm

For the capture, the deck and the Kona are setup normally. Nothing changes. Likewise for the device control settings in FCP. Your downconversion, will happen by changing your capture preset.

Here's a good example, this is what we do on the show I'm working on right now:

Tape: HD CAM 1080Psf 23.98

Finishing Format: Pro Res (HQ) 1080PsF 23.98 to HD CAM 1080Psf 23.98

Offline:

Capture Preset: Custom Photo-Jpeg For HD through Kona (Read as whatever your codec of choice is)
Device Control: Sony VTR B 23.98 (A and B are pretty much interchangeable, as far as I know)

Online:
Capture Preset: AJA Kona3: 1080PsF 23.98 Pro Res (HQ)
Device Control: Sony VTR B 23.98

As far as Reference and any deck settings, they should remain the same for both captures to reduce any frame drifting.

Hope that helps clear things up.


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Henry Bateman
Re: HD Online or SD Offline / 24p or 25i?
on Oct 5, 2009 at 8:30:39 pm

Thank you!

I'm capturing now at 24p (should i be capturing at 23.98?) only problem is with timecode breaks (i've selected the option to ignore tc breaks but will this cause problems later do you think? every tape so far has them.

One other thing that's happened a couple of times is that the picture freezes - the sound continues but the picture doesn't - and it's the same when played back after capture... any ideas?

FYI, i have a 7200, 1tb drive connected via FW800 (the 2tb raid drive wasn't available in Iceland!)

Henry


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Eric Johnson
Re: HD Online or SD Offline / 24p or 25i?
on Oct 6, 2009 at 1:37:56 am

What codec are you using? It sounds like you are dropping frames (which should not be happening with Pro Res (Proxy) or photo jpeg), when your picture is freezing. But it also sounds like you have timecode breaks, not a whole lot you can about that. As far as I know at least.


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Henry Bateman
Re: HD Online or SD Offline / 24p or 25i?
on Oct 7, 2009 at 8:31:45 pm

Hi Gary,

Thanks for your reply. Have held off from getting back to you to see if it happened again but it seems to only have been on the first tape that it froze and fine on the 41 tapes since (yep not much sleep for me in last few days!) have been fine. Will try to re-capture that one again at the end just in case.

FYI i'm capturing with the ProRes Proxy setting that you recommended - it seems perfect for the job so far. Thank you.

I do have another question and i'm sure it's a stupid one but i can't figure it out at the moment...

I've just noticed that 95% of the tapes are capturing fine but the odd few capture all the media to QT files in the finder but in the bin they are much shorter in duration (for example: a 50min tape is 50mins when you play file in finder but only 15mins in FCP)

I'm capturing the whole of every tape in one go using capture now in log & capture.

Once again many thanks for your help and sorry for asking daft questions!

Henry


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Eric Johnson
Re: HD Online or SD Offline / 24p or 25i?
on Oct 7, 2009 at 10:11:22 pm

You should try re-importing the files from the finder. Sometimes FCP does some strange things...

If you re-import it should be fine, if not, you may have to re dig. the files. Also, re-importing them shouldn't cause you any trouble as long as you've been giving the tapes Reel #'s while capturing.


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Henry Bateman
Re: HD Online or SD Offline / 24p or 25i?
on Oct 10, 2009 at 10:25:59 am

Thanks Eric,

Some of the files re-import fine and others stay the same... Sadly of 79 tapes there are 11 that won't re-import.

Unless you have any bright ideas it looks like i'm spending another day re-digitizing!

(don't know if it makes any difference but have been capturing audio and video to separate files as i tried this when i had the freezing and it seemed to stop it)

Best

Henry


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Henry Bateman
Re: HD Online or SD Offline / 24p or 25i?
on Oct 10, 2009 at 2:01:05 pm

I've found a work-around for this problem:

  • going to the file in the finder and changing the name on both the video and audio clips(eg: tape33-v -> tape33z-v)
  • importing the newly named files back into the bin
  • merging the clips (syncing with timecode)
  • The new merged clip is the correct length.

    this also works for video captured to a single file.

    I don't understand why it works but thought i'd share.

    Henry


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