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30p 60i 24p, one project, one mess.

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Jon Lucas
30p 60i 24p, one project, one mess.
on Sep 11, 2009 at 8:43:49 pm

SOS

Ok, I've really done it this time. For crazy reasons that I will not get into, I've managed to shoot a wedding ceremony (not getting paid, don't worry) on three different cameras AND three different frame rates. Two XH A1's were shot using 30p and 24p (or 30f and 24f); One Everio camcorder was shot in it's 1440 cbr mode which is 60i I believe. Now I am stuck with the fun of sorting out this mess so that I can edit on one timeline in FCP and export to one dvd.

Does anyone have any ideas of where to begin? Is there one of these three frame rates that is easiest to convert other frame rates too? Am I completely screwed ?

Thanks for any help.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: 30p 60i 24p, one project, one mess.
on Sep 11, 2009 at 9:09:11 pm

[Jon Lucas] "Does anyone have any ideas of where to begin?"

Start with the deliverables: one DVD. As an NTSC DVD, it will have to be 720x480, widescreen is optional.. but in your case, since everything is 16x9, it wouldn't hurt. To accommodate all those frame rates, it ought to be 29.97 frames/sec with interlaced video. Forget about making a 24p DVD.

Since all the video is basically HDV, capture in ProRes and edit in 1440x1080 resolution and 60i... which is the same thing as 29.97 interlaced. You can work straight off this 16x9 edit timeline using Compressor to make the m2v & AC3 files for the DVD. You can tell DVD Studio pro to make a 16x9 DVD.

As long as you don't want anything fancy like a 24p DV, it really isn't the disaster you thought.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Shane Ross
Re: 30p 60i 24p, one project, one mess.
on Sep 11, 2009 at 9:14:30 pm

30f, 24f, 60i...all run at 29.97. They just have different looks. But all run at 30fps.



Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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cowcowcowcowcow
Joel Peregrine
Re: 30p 60i 24p, one project, one mess.
on Sep 12, 2009 at 12:13:29 am

"30f, 24f, 60i...all run at 29.97. They just have different looks. But all run at 30fps."

Not true on the XHA1 and not on the HV40 either. The XHA1, when shot at 24f, is reported by FCP to be 23.98 fps / HDV 1080p24. It does not play nice with the HV30 which records 24F HDV as 29.97 fps / 60i. That is why the HV40's could be called an upgrade - because its main new feature was native 24 fps just like the XHA1.

"From Wikipedia: In 2009 Canon announced the Canon HV40 which is identical to HV30 except it is now capable for native progressive 24p recording without applying 3:2 pulldown (thus without encoding it into a 1080i/30 stream.)"

I'm just using that situation to get the point across that all 24 fps HDV isn't equal. Some is wrapped in a 60i wrapper and some is not. The XHA1 records 24F which for every practical editing purpose in FCP means 24p. So for Jon's situation he absolutely has to do some transcoding if he doesn't want to deal with cadence issues on his timeline - either up from 24p to 30p with the one A1 angle or down from 60i to 24p with the other two cameras. The latter is more preferable, I'd guess. In my own situation with A1's and HV30's after every event I have to transcode everything to ProRes 422 (LT) so multicam will work...


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Jon Lucas
Re: 30p 60i 24p, one project, one mess.
on Sep 12, 2009 at 3:44:05 pm

Thanks guys for your quick advice. I'm relieved to hear that this may not be as big of a mess as I originally thought.

Joel, you mention that transcoding down from 60i and 30f to 24p on my last two cameras is the more preferable route for me and my wedding dvd (rather than transcoding up from 24f and 30f to 60i). Why is this the case ? And is it something I have to do via FCP "capture" or can MPEG streamclip perform this type of conversion on already captured 60i and 30f movie files?

Interesting bit of info about the HV40 upgrades. That whole line packs an insane punch for its size/price.



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Joel Peregrine
Re: 30p 60i 24p, one project, one mess.
on Sep 13, 2009 at 6:02:43 pm

No response? Seriously - I should know if I'm wrong.


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Jon Lucas
Re: 30p 60i 24p, one project, one mess.
on Sep 13, 2009 at 6:55:07 pm

What do you think you are wrong about ?


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Jon Lucas
Re: 30p 60i 24p, one project, one mess.
on Sep 14, 2009 at 12:42:53 am

I think you are right.. Cinema Tools identifies the clips shot at 24f as "Frame Rate: 23.98 FPS" and the others as "29.97 FPS".

Transcoding down from 29.97 FPS to 23.98 FPS is my next problem then.. I've captured the files as HDV 1080p30 and 1080p24 respectively. The issue is that the XHA1 and Everio have gotten away from me in the last few days (returned to their rightful owners) . Is there a way for me to transcode the 1080p30 vids into 1080p24 vids (or vice versa) without having to recapture or am I gonna need to hunt down those cameras again?

I've been looking around for help on this and will keep doing so, but if anyone has any idea of where to look I am all ears.


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cowcowcowcowcow
Joel Peregrine
Re: 30p 60i 24p, one project, one mess.
on Sep 14, 2009 at 4:07:16 am

Hi Jon,

I feel your pain. The variations in formats is confusing. You don't need to recapture the footage though. Regardless the settings that were in place when you captured there is only one way the files can be captured (unless you captured to ProRes during capture, which you didn't). The flies you have are exactly as they exist on the tape - there is only one capture preset for HDV material - HDV. The settings come into play when you put those files on a timeline. (Although - does the everio shoot HDV?) Here's what I would do in your situation:

I'd take all your footage into Compressor and transcode it to ProRes 422 (or ProRes 422 (LT) if you have FCS 7) and either 60i/1440x1080 or 24p/1440x1080. If HDD space is a limiting factor transcode to HDV rather than ProRes. The advantage of ProRes is faster rendering and no lengthy conforming process on output. For this situation - SD DVD - the quality difference between HDV/ProRes won't be noticeable to untrained eyes. I just did a test with some 29.97 A1 footage transcoded to 23.976 and then different footage shot at 23.976 transcoded to 29.97. 29.97 to 23.976 looked choppy, but 23.976 to 29.97 looked great, so maybe changing that one 24f angle to 29.97 is the way to go. Do your own tests though with a sample of your footage.


I shoot 24F 1080i (1440 x 1080) on Canon A1's (same as 24P on cameras with CMOS sensors). I capture full tapes as a single file and keep them in their native HDV. In FCP 7 I set up a timeline with the following sequence settings:

Frame Size:
1440x1080 HD (1440x1080) (16:9)

Pixel Aspect Ratio:
HD (1440x1080) (Leave Anamorphic 16:9 unchecked)

Field Dominance:
Should default at None

Editing Timebase:
23.98

QuickTime Video Settings:
Apple ProRes 422 or Apple ProRes 422 (LT) if you have FCS 3

Audio Settings:
48 kHz, 16-bit, Channel Grouped


Render files will be in the ProRes 422 (LT) format. If there is any native HDV on the timeline that hasn't had a filter applied or a speed or motion attribute changed it will also need to be rendered (conformed) before exporting for the DVD. When editing is done I place and name the chapter markers before exporting a reference movie with current setting left as the default. That file is taken into Compressor for SD DVD encoding. In Compressor I max out the bit rate to fill the disc (but don't go beyond 7.5 MB/sec for the MPEG-2 file) And leave everything else on automatic. Those assets are in imported to DVDSP. Make sure to set the menus to 16:9.


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Jon Lucas
Re: 30p 60i 24p, one project, one mess.
on Sep 14, 2009 at 11:28:51 pm

Thanks a lot man! I'd been pulling my hair out for two days trying to straighten out all of this. It's frustrating when you just want to start editing but know how important these first few steps are to get right. I feel like I finally have what I need to get under way. Thanks again!


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Joel Peregrine
Re: 30p 60i 24p, one project, one mess.
on Sep 15, 2009 at 3:40:01 am

No problem! We've all been there!


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