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Jason Brown
sending TC out through MXO2 box to LM-1760 monitor
on Sep 10, 2009 at 2:04:15 pm

Hey Guys,

Anyone using the LM-1760 in conjunction with the matrox mxo2? I'm not getting tc on the monitor display. Is there some secret? Or does the MXO2 not pass it through?

-Jason


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Shane Ross
Re: sending TC out through MXO2 box to LM-1760 monitor
on Sep 10, 2009 at 3:59:02 pm

What is the LM-1760? I know it is a monitor, but which? Flanders 1706W will display timecode if you are connected via SDI...as long as you have the latest firmware on that.



Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Jason Brown
Re: sending TC out through MXO2 box to LM-1760 monitor
on Sep 10, 2009 at 5:09:58 pm

It was suggested by Walter - it's an FSI - Flanders Scientific Inc.

I would assume it's updated firmware...I just got it in a couple weeks ago.

-Jason


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Shane Ross
Re: sending TC out through MXO2 box to LM-1760 monitor
on Sep 10, 2009 at 5:14:41 pm

Don't assume anything. Call the Flanders guys and ask.



Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Bram Desmet
Re: sending TC out through MXO2 box to LM-1760 monitor
on Sep 10, 2009 at 8:46:10 pm

Units shipped after July 1st, or any unit updated with new firmware (9.06 or later) after that point, should support this feature. If you see the time code toggle on the OSD menu then you have this feature. If you see the time code box appear on screen and you get dashes instead of numbers then there is no time code present in the source. Also, you must select whether the monitor should look for LTC, VITC 1, or VITC 2.

I don't know enough about the MXO2 or FCP to tell you how to push the TC through, maybe somebody else can provide some guidance on that topic.

Bram Desmet
FSI (Flanders Scientific, Inc.)
http://www.FlandersScientific.com


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Jason Brown
Re: sending TC out through MXO2 box to LM-1760 monitor
on Sep 10, 2009 at 9:30:06 pm

I saw the feature...it's on my screen...just no numbering is coming through. I've run through the VITC, LTC, still no success.

I was concerned that the MXO isn't pushing it through...just was wondering if anyone else was using the same setup with success.

-Jason


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Ned Soltz
Re: sending TC out through MXO2 box to LM-1760 monitor
on Oct 1, 2009 at 2:03:09 pm

Just tested with Matrox MXO2 /LM1760W combination. I as well cannot get MXO2 to pump out timecode. Will run this by my Matrox contacts.

BTW, just got my LM-1760W yesterday and it produces amazing images. Looking now at a shot I did day before yesterday atop the Pallisades overlooking the Hudson and am asking myself "Did I shoot that?"

Ned Soltz



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Jason Brown
Re: sending TC out through MXO2 box to LM-1760 monitor
on Oct 1, 2009 at 5:17:55 pm

Let me know what you find out...definitely.

BTW, I didn't realize this before I bought it...but the LM-1760 is a 17" 1366x768 monitor. Does anyone have an opinion on whether the 22" monitor would produce MUCH better images at 1920x1080?

-Jason


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Bram Desmet
Re: sending TC out through MXO2 box to LM-1760 monitor
on Oct 1, 2009 at 5:41:31 pm

No, the LM-2130W will look worse overall. Color Fidelity, Off-Axis Viewing, and White Uniformity (all of which the 17" does Much, Much better) are drastically more important than native resolution. Unlike scaling up (SD to fit HD screen) scaling 1920x1080 to fit 1366x768 produces near flawless results and is easy, especially when you are talking about something in the 17" size range that has such fine dot pitch anyway. Lower panel resolution is much more noticeable in larger units with larger dot pitch.

I honestly think that if we didn't list the resolution in our specifications as 1366x768 few, if any, people would ever think the resolution was lower than our larger units. There are some specific test patterns that can help you discern differences in native resolution, but in real world use you'd be hard pressed to notice a difference. Keep in mind that if you ever run into a situation where you feel the resolution may be an issue that the monitor has native 1:1 pixel mapping mode you can use to double check whatever issue you feel may exist at the 1:1 pixel level.

Bram Desmet
FSI (Flanders Scientific, Inc.)
http://www.FlandersScientific.com


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Shane Ross
Re: sending TC out through MXO2 box to LM-1760 monitor
on Oct 1, 2009 at 5:51:36 pm

Man...why didn't I test the 1706 with my MXO2 when I had it? Because I didn't take it home, I just used it at work.

Well, one of these days I'll buy one. That 1706 is just amazing.



Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Jason Brown
Re: sending TC out through MXO2 box to LM-1760 monitor
on Oct 1, 2009 at 7:23:34 pm

Wow...thanks for the post, I don't know that much about

[Bram Desmet] "Color Fidelity, Off-Axis Viewing, and White Uniformity"

:)

I'll keep my 17" and be happy with it!

Quick question on the 17"...does anyone make a case that fits it as a rack mount? I'd like to have one on shoots as a preview monitor, but I'd like it to sit in the case it travels in...I envision something that has a removable front and back...and mounts the monitor inside via the rack mount brackets. I know I've seen similar cases for audio equipment.

Anyone know of anything like that?

-Jason


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Bram Desmet
Re: sending TC out through MXO2 box to LM-1760 monitor
on Oct 10, 2009 at 12:09:43 am

The LM-1760W is slightly less than 7RU and comes with a set of static rack mount ears, so any 7RU or larger 19" portable rack mount style case would work. A quick search on google pulls up a good deal of 8RU portable molded plastic rack cases. Of course the depth of these cases adds a good deal of bulk, but perhaps that could be used for storage of additional equipment.

Bram Desmet
FSI (Flanders Scientific, Inc.)
http://www.FlandersScientific.com


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Jason Brown
Re: sending TC out through MXO2 box to LM-1760 monitor
on Oct 16, 2009 at 1:56:22 am

[Bram Desmet] "slightly less than 7RU"

What is 7RU? I'm not familiar with case sizes and stuff...is that a standard measurement or size?

I was rethinking when I saw the new LM-0750W.

Any idea as to how that will work as a field monitor? Does anyone have one yet? I like the battery operation...that will be pretty slick. Although the resolution is only 800x600...I guess on a 7" monitor it's probably not that bad?

-Jason


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Bram Desmet
Re: sending TC out through MXO2 box to LM-1760 monitor
on Oct 16, 2009 at 2:31:29 am

1 U (or RU) is 1.75 inches. RU stands for Rack Unit and it is a fairly ubiquitous term in broadcast engineering circles used to describe what height a piece of equipment will occupy within a standard 19" rack. Our 17" monitor is slightly less than 7RU and I only used this industry jargon in the previous post because if you are looking for the cases I was describing they will almost all be referred to by RU size/capacity. These cases are typically found in even RU measurements. A 6RU case would be too small, a 7RU cases would be just perfect (but hard to find), and 8RU cases is probably the easiest case to find that would do precisely what you described. Type in "8 U Roto-Rack" in google and you will find links to the several products the basically do what you were inquiring about in your previous posts.

The LM-0750W was built primarily as a field monitor and has all of the features found on the larger FSI monitors. This unit is actually 800x480 resolution, not 800x600. 800x480 is a pretty common resolution on the nicer 7" 16:9 aspect LCD monitors on the market. Some of the lower end 7" units will have half the vertical resolution or be 6 bit(only reproducing 262K colors as opposed to 16.77M colors) so that is something to look for when comparing various options on the market. Our unit, as well as many other higher-end 7" broadcast monitors, have a 1:1 zoom capability that can be effectively used to help establish critical focus in HD so this helps to address one of the primary concerns when dealing with smaller, lower resolution monitors.

You won't find much in the way of reviews on the LM-0750W because it is brand new unit. I am obviously biased as I work for FSI, but it may be helpful to point out that this unit shares all of the features of the larger FSI monitors. If you like the LM-1760W, you'll most likely be quite pleased with the LM-0750W as it essentially a more compact version of that unit. The only main differences you'll find are:
1. That you do not have the analog loop throughs on the 7"(still have SDI out, just not analog b/c of space restrictions, analog in is still included).
2. The unit comes with your choice of V-Mount or AB mount battery plate.
3. The unit has an image flip option that allows you to turn the image upside for certain camera mounting (steadicam) type operations.

Hope this helps.

Bram Desmet
FSI (Flanders Scientific, Inc.)
http://www.FlandersScientific.com


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gary adcock
Re: sending TC out through MXO2 box to LM-1760 monitor
on Oct 16, 2009 at 10:54:44 am

[Bram Desmet] "Hope this helps. "


bram,
I find your posts incredibly informative and let me say that we should be honored that you have chose to help educate COW users. It is often difficult to explain the mind numbing principles of color processing due to the differing implementations every manufacturer uses in their specific panel or processing engine.

It was also a pleasure to meet you at the HDWorld NYC this week.



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL


http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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Jason Brown
Re: sending TC out through MXO2 box to LM-1760 monitor
on Oct 16, 2009 at 2:36:53 pm

I completely agree...it's great to get ACCURATE information out to people...there are so many hacks around...information can be very mismatched...


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Jason Brown
Re: sending TC out through MXO2 box to LM-1760 monitor
on Oct 16, 2009 at 2:32:36 pm

That info does help. I love my 17"....

I think it was you who suggested against going for the 22" because the 17" was good enough.

I guess I'm VERY naive when it comes to video quality. I equate pixel count to quality. a 1920 monitor must be better than a 1366 monitor...because it has more pixels.

I don't understand a couple things. The pixel count of the smaller monitor is 800x480. That doesn't add up to match what I've come to know as D1 - 864x486 square or DV - 864x480 square. How does that translate to matching up with SD or HD video? The aspect is off, right?

Also...why does my 17" monitor have a resolution of 1366x768...720HD footage is @ 1280x720 square. How does that translate?

I'll probably end up getting the 7" for field work...I'd just like a better understanding of these strange resolutions.

-Jason


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Bram Desmet
Re: sending TC out through MXO2 box to LM-1760 monitor
on Oct 16, 2009 at 8:22:50 pm

Well, I could spend days answering this question because there is so much that goes into the question of monitor resolution, but let's just cover some of the basics...

The first thing to take note of is that while these resolutions may seem strange with respect to video standards they are not at all strange with respect to LCD panel resolution...but that is not what you were asking.

The short answer is simple: The vast majority of LCD panels used in professional broadcast monitors were NOT built specifically for that purpose. The capital investment needed to build a new LCD panel manufacturing plant is astronomical (think 500 Million+ dollar range). The broadcast market is simply not large enough for any of the big panel manufacturers (and there are only really a handful) to justify building a dedicated plant to building panels just for this industry. What virtually all broadcast monitor manufacturers do (even the big guys) is try to find the best available panel from the handful of large panel manufacturers to best suite their application. This means that panel resolutions are driven in large part by the consumer market or other large (much larger than broadcast) market segments.

This all leads to some common trends in panel resolutions at various sizes. If you look at professional broadcast monitors in the 23" to 26" size range you will see that the vast majority are 1920x1200. Why? Well, because that is a computer graphics standard (WUXGA) resolution and the computer monitor market is exponentially larger than the broadcast market. This means your aspect ratio on these monitors is 16:10, which is why you get the black bars top and bottom on many professional monitors when viewing 16:9 footage. You can find native 1920x1080 resolution panels in this size (mostly made for small format HD TVs), but overall the best balance between reasonable prices and high performance are with the 1920x1200 resolution displays.

At the 40" plus size range you find a lot of 1920x1080 panels and virtually no 1920x1200 resolution screens. Why? Well, because at this size range in the consumer market most panels are going into HD televisions and not computer applications. So while many professional broadcast monitor manufacturers find that the 1920x1200 panels are the best suited (best performing) panels for their 24" units they opt of 1920x1080 panels for their larger monitors, because that is what is available.

Below 21.5" you find a very limited selection of native HD (1920x1080) panels because their is very limited demand for those on the consumer side. This is changing as more consumers buy into the 1080p marketing push from the large television manufacturers and start to want/expect that same resolution/performance on smaller scale screens found on their laptops and small desktop monitors. However, for professional applications we still have not found a native 1920x1080 resolution 17" LCD panel that has acceptable pixel response time, off-axis viewing, color gamut, and price point. That is why we, and many other manufacturers, use a 1366x768 17" panel because it does meet all of these benchmark criteria for use within a professional monitor. I understand what you are saying about 'more resolution is better', but I assure you that is only true if all other characteristics are equal. I think even an untrained eye can tell you he likes the monitor with better off-axis viewing, wider color gamut, and better white uniformity...he may not be able to tell you exactly why, but even this 'Joe Consumer' will say "it just looks better." Resolution IMHO is secondary to these other characteristics and the untrained eye is much more likely to NOT notice the lower resolution, especially when dealing with smaller monitors. With such fine pixel pitch at 17" the lower resolution is much less apparent than most people would assume. It has happened more than once that we show a 17" unit in a room with a higher resolution 40" or larger display and the clients comment that the smaller, lower resolution, 17" looks much sharper...all things being equal I attribute this to the dot pitch/pixel pitch of the various displays. On a side note, I do prefer 1366x768 to 1280x768 resolution 17" units because 1366x768 is native 16:9 aspect ratio so your HD sources will fill the entire screen. There are a good deal of monitors using 1280x768 screens and with those units you will get black bars top and bottom, so your actual image size is slightly smaller than 17". 1280x768 stems again from the computer world as this is the WXGA video standard. 1366x768 is gaining in popularity, again primarily b/c even though it is not native 1920x1080, it is native 16:9 aspect ratio.

The story of course continues with the smaller screens. Again because of the computer world one of the dominant resolutions at the 7" size is becoming 800x480 (this is the WVGA standard). The consumer market (PDAs, Netbooks, portable DVD players,etc.) again drives the availability and resolution standard of these smaller panels.

Hope you're still awake at this point and that it helps put this into perspective.

Bram Desmet
FSI (Flanders Scientific, Inc.)
http://www.FlandersScientific.com


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Jason Brown
Re: sending TC out through MXO2 box to LM-1760 monitor
on Oct 16, 2009 at 11:48:54 pm

WOW!

I'm going to read that again...but I didn't realize how SMALL broadcast video is. I would have thought it was a much larger market segment to drive the manufacturers...but I see your point of the computer market really being the driving factor.

There is SO MUCH information in that post...I'll read it again after I put my kids to bed!

Thanks so much for that...now go take a nap!

-Jason


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Bob Mark
Re: sending TC out through MXO2 box to LM-1760 monitor
on Nov 2, 2009 at 1:04:29 pm

I totally agree with what you said. I was just commenting that I thought it was odd to market a SD rez monitor as Hi Def. I guess saying SD resolution with with Hi Def inputs doesn't sound that good.

Bob


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Bram Desmet
Re: sending TC out through MXO2 box to LM-1760 monitor
on Nov 2, 2009 at 2:03:18 pm

I think that would only confuse people even more because we are talking about a 800x480 resolution monitor, which is a widescreen aspect ratio, and not 720x480 or 704x480 (assuming NTSC here) resolution (closer to 4:3) so the monitor is in fact not SD resolution. I think in the interest of addressing the primary concern potential customers would have, namely does the monitor support HD or not, it does make a lot of sense to refer to the monitor as HD if it supports HD formats. If you refer to a 800x480 panel as SD resolution the majority of people will assume the unit is 4:3 aspect ratio and that would certainly be an incorrect assumption. However, along your same line of reasoning I do agree that it is very important for manufacturers to explicitly list the native resolution of their monitors and I think that most, though certainly not all, manufacturers do make this information readily available.

Bram Desmet
FSI (Flanders Scientific, Inc.)
http://www.FlandersScientific.com


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