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How to double frame number keeping same duration?

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Ulrich Utiger
How to double frame number keeping same duration?
on Jul 3, 2013 at 4:49:06 pm

I would like a 15 fps video make smoother with Twixtor by inserting an intermediate frame between the existing ones. I was able in Premiere and AE to double the duration of the video as explained in the tutorials. But this is really complicated for several scenes. I have several scences in the video. At each change of a scence two or more frames become blurred, which I must absolutely prevent for further treatement. So I was hoping to apply Twixtor just to a scence at once in Premiere without changing its duration. However, I did not find out how to do that. Especially, I dont understand what the "Frame Number" in "Time Remap Mode" is for. The explanations in the help files regarding this topic are a mystery...


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Pierre Jasmin
Re: How to double frame number keeping same duration?
on Jul 3, 2013 at 5:40:36 pm

You have to switch to Display Source and animate at scene cut the Mark Segments menu, between A,B and C so Twixtor knows there is a cut there.

Pierre



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Ulrich Utiger
Re: How to double frame number keeping same duration?
on Jul 3, 2013 at 6:44:50 pm

Ok, I saw this with the cuts, thanks. But I still dont know how to interpolate frames without changing the duration. If I insert kewframes and then change the frame number, the video is not interpolated. If I have 120 frames for instance and set a keyframe at zero at the begining and 120 at end and then change the frame number to 240, the video doubles its speed up the middle and from then on remains still on the last frame. So how can I use "frame number" instead of "speed" in "output control" for interpolation?


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Pierre Jasmin
Re: How to double frame number keeping same duration?
on Jul 3, 2013 at 7:33:55 pm

To increase the duration of a sequence, you should watch our tutorials

http://help.revisionfx.com/album/20/



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Pierre Jasmin
Re: How to double frame number keeping same duration?
on Jul 3, 2013 at 8:32:50 pm

If I was not clear
In Premiere, I think you need to drop the 15 FPS footage in a 30 FPS sequence, right click on clip and select speed and set to 200% speed, you will now have all the frames

Then you drop that into sequence 2 and apply Twixtor there with speed 50% to double the amount of frames



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Ulrich Utiger
Re: How to double frame number keeping same duration?
on Jul 3, 2013 at 9:09:00 pm

I know this method. The problem is that I want to apply Twixter separately to each scene in order to avoid blurring on the transition from one scene to another. You said that I need to insert cuts at each scene transition. The problem here is that I can only insert 3 cuts (A, B an C) while my footage has hundreds of scenes (already cut with Premiere). So the solution would be to apply Twixter separately to each scene and then only double the frame rate without changing the speed or duration:

Here in short what I want:
frame rate: doubling from 15 to 30 fps
duration: no change (same as source)
speed: 100% (same as source)

Is this possible with Twixter or should I look for another solution?


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Pierre Jasmin
Re: How to double frame number keeping same duration?
on Jul 3, 2013 at 9:21:17 pm

You are not limited to 3 cuts, we only look if the value is the same on the two frames we request.
You can animate A,B,C,A,B,C,...

If you have a movie edited at FPS with cuts in it, no need to split apart
Drop it in sequence 1 15 PFS, double speed with Premiere as I suggested
Drop that sequence in a new 30 FPS sequence (say NO when Premiere asked you if you want to conform), in Twixtor Source Display mode, mark cuts
Then type 50% in Twixtor Speed
Does that do what you want? 10 seconds will remain 10 seconds like this (and you will have 2 times more frames)

Pierre



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Ulrich Utiger
Re: How to double frame number keeping same duration?
on Jul 3, 2013 at 10:04:01 pm

No it doesn't! It does not interpolate, it just insert the same frames. Are you a stuff member of Vision Effects or just a User?


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Pierre Jasmin
Re: How to double frame number keeping same duration?
on Jul 3, 2013 at 10:41:42 pm

Here's a sample Project taking a 15 FPS movie and converting it to a 30 FPS movie in Premiere CS6 with Twixtor
http://www.revisioneffects.com/bugreports/prem/CS6PremProj.zip

You will see it's a frame counter and in the main sequence as set here you will see a blend between two numbers every 2 resulting frames

Perhaps there is something I don't understand (like perhaps you have effective 15 FPS inside a 30 FPS movie, then that would require to use Interpret Footage instead)

I do note that I needed to slide by a frame the nested sequence as there appears to be a bug with Premiere Speed - duplicates the first frame


Pierre
RE:Vision Effects



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Pierre Jasmin
Re: How to double frame number keeping same duration?
on Jul 3, 2013 at 11:10:05 pm

I added an example with 5 sequences cut together in intermediate sequence (nested sequence)
With Twixtor Scene Cut set on first frame of each cut
http://www.revisioneffects.com/bugreports/prem/CS6PremProj2.zip

I will file a bug with Premiere with regards to speed being offset by 1
(you will see in intermediate movie that it turns 0 to 99 to 0,0, to 98
In a case where it's a long sequence (not made up like here) that means you will loose the last frame



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Ulrich Utiger
Re: How to double frame number keeping same duration?
on Jul 4, 2013 at 7:58:26 am

I can't open your files. I get the message from Premiere:

Ce projet contenait une séquence impossible à ouvrir. Aucun fichier de préconfiguration de prévisualisation de séquence ou codec n'est associé à ce type de séquence.


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Steve Cohen
Re: How to double frame number keeping same duration?
on Jul 4, 2013 at 6:36:47 pm

Pierre,

I want to do much the same thing in AE and am running into a strange problem.

I've put together material transferred from 8mm home movies -- it's a tiff sequence that I'm treating as an 18 fps clip. Many, many cuts, thus many, many layers in the AE comp. (Should have done it in PP, but with 165 edits and color correction on each one, I'm not eager to start over.)

Composition plays fine at 18 fps. But the slow frame rate is distracting. So I nested the whole thing into another comp at 24 fps. I apply Twixtor to the single clip in that comp, set the input frame rate to 18 to match the nested material, and set 100% speed. This plays way smoother than at 18 fps with very few artifacts (amazing -- thank you). But there are artifacts at the cuts. So I set the display to source, keyframe all the cuts, and set back to twixtored output.

But it doesn't work. The cuts are marked correctly, but Twixtor still creates artifacts over the cuts.

What am I doing wrong?

Many thanks for producing such great software and for being so generous with your time here.

Steve


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Pierre Jasmin
Re: How to double frame number keeping same duration?
on Jul 5, 2013 at 3:23:02 pm

Here's a sample project
http://www.revisioneffects.com/bugreports/prem/AE_FPS.zip

I made a movie FakeEdit here with number, assume in your case it's your footage and that comp does not exist

What works in this case in AE is

1) Drop the 18 FPS movie in an 18 FPS comp and set Twixtor to 100%, do the Mark Segments here (of course remember to set Input FPS to 18)
2) Drop that comp into a 30 FPS and render
AE will also properly resample audio like that

Pierre



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Steve Cohen
Re: How to double frame number keeping same duration?
on Jul 5, 2013 at 4:23:58 pm

Pierre,
Just tried it and did not have success.

1. 18 fps cut sequence, call this V1
2. nest V1 into V2, also set 18 fps. Apply Twixtor. In Twixtor, set 18 fps input frame rate and 100% speed. Mark cuts.
3. Nest V2 into V3, set to 24 fps. Cuts still have same artifacts.

Any suggestions?

Thanks again,
Steve


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Pierre Jasmin
Re: How to double frame number keeping same duration?
on Jul 5, 2013 at 4:32:01 pm

Steve,

Do you agree my project works?

Is it possible to send a short version (a few cuts) to techsupport at revisionfx.com ?

Pierre



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Steve Cohen
Re: How to double frame number keeping same duration?
on Jul 5, 2013 at 10:07:55 pm

Pierre,
Yes, the sample project works for me in Premiere.

I will create something and send it to your attention at techsupport@revisionfx.com.

Unfortunately, the media is a tiff sequence, so I don't know if I can get it small enough to email. We'll see.

Thanks --
Steve


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Pierre Jasmin
Re: How to double frame number keeping same duration?
on Jul 5, 2013 at 10:52:01 pm

Steve, did you mean AE? (I made an 18 FPS to 30 FPS project in AE for you)

If you hit the contact form in Support on our site, it will reply with an automatic message with an FTP dropzone (yousendit, dropbox, google drive... all work too)

Pierre
RE:Vision Effects



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Steve Cohen
Re: How to double frame number keeping same duration?
on Jul 5, 2013 at 11:04:02 pm

Pierre,

I created a short test project and couldn't reproduce the problem. Then I went back to my original project and looked more closely. Many of the 'mark segments' keyframes were between two frames. I believe this happened when I took that sequence (the middle sequence of the three nests) and converted it from 24 fps to 18 fps. Very strange to see a keyframe in the middle of a frame. In any event, I went through all the keyframes and moved them to frame boundaries and I believe that has fixed the problem. I am exporting the whole thing and checking.

Again -- many thanks for your help,
Steve


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Steve Cohen
Re: How to double frame number keeping same duration?
on Jul 6, 2013 at 3:37:51 am

That did it. All is good. (And yes, this was with After Effects. In the earlier post, I was referring to the PP project that you attached to your post, which worked for me. Sorry for the confusion.)

Again, thanks for your help, and for making such a terrific product.


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Steve Cohen
Re: How to double frame number keeping same duration?
on Jul 6, 2013 at 6:56:37 pm

Pierre,
Is the procedure the same if I'm working entirely in Premiere?

If I want to convert an edited 18 fps sequence to 24 with twixtor -- would I nest the 18 fps into another 18 fps seq at 100%, then nest again into a 24 fps sequence? Or do I have to tell it to run at 75% somewhere?

Steve


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Pierre Jasmin
Re: How to double frame number keeping same duration?
on Jul 6, 2013 at 7:37:44 pm

Steve,

Premiere: It might work taking the 18 FPS in an 18 FPS sequence, doing Twixtor 75% then drop that in a 30 FPS sequence and apply Premiere Speed 133.333% (1/.75) to that clip in the main sequence.. minus the fact that the main sequence will be one frame off (will have 2 times the first frame at the begining). Let me check all this monday.


Pierre



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Pierre Jasmin
Re: How to double frame number keeping same duration?
on Jul 7, 2013 at 1:23:00 am

Steve,

Made a new project

http://www.revisioneffects.com/bugreports/prem/Copied_18_to_24_001.zip

You actually in Premiere need to do two nesting down for this (unlike AE)
1) 18 FPS: You need to pad the movie somehow so it's more than 1/3 longer to extend the duration (in frames).
2) 18 FPS: Then you drop 1) into another sequence, apply Twixtor there 75%
3) 24 FPS: Drop 2) in there, keep current settings, apply speed 133.333%
You will see I tried to cut the first frame and slide it back to 0 as Premiere has a problem with it's speed math when frame rate is different.
Because of that I would be careful about audio to make sure you are not a frame off audio wise (or worse) doing all this

Will have Lori do a tutorial on FPS conversion in Premiere this summer... :)

Pierre



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Steve Cohen
Re: How to double frame number keeping same duration?
on Jul 8, 2013 at 7:24:45 pm

Thanks Pierre, that worked. No idea why -- it seems counter-intuitive that changing the speed to 133% with PP's tools would actually make Twixtor do something, but it did the trick.

I had a problem with the first frame, too. It's the first frame of a fade in and it bumped -- no smooth fade. I think I need to apply the fade to the last sequence in the chain.

Thanks again --
Steve


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Steve Cohen
Re: How to double frame number keeping same duration?
on Jul 12, 2013 at 12:06:17 am

Pierre,

Now that I've got the workflow issues sorted out, I have a question about artifacts. I'm using Twixtor on old 8mm movies that I've had transferred as HD TIFF sequences. Most are 18 fps in color with reasonably good exposure. This stuff converts to 24 nicely and it really improves the sense of reality. 18 looks like a silent movie. 24 looks 'real'.

But I have a couple of rolls shot in B&W at 12 fps in a theater. Converting this to 24 is more problematic. When there is clear, sharp foreground action all is well. But when there are large expanses of underexposed, undefined grainy grey or black, Twixtor turns the grain into what looks like shimmering, moving jello. I've fooled with the settings and haven't been able to get rid of it. Do you have any suggestions?

Thanks,
Steve


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Pierre Jasmin
Re: How to double frame number keeping same duration?
on Jul 12, 2013 at 12:21:09 am

Yes in constant areas with heavy film grain twixtor will sort of cluster the noise
You might need some denoising before Twixtor
If you want to denoise just the motion tracking source, the ALT track source is there for that
To avoid another nested sequence, you maybe can instead apply a denoising tool like DE:Noise in the nested comp/sequence *nested 2* in earlier project parlance, and then copy the original video track turned off over it in sequence where twixtor is applied in *nested 1* and use that as "Color Source" - making sure the first frames are aligned.

Pierre



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Steve Cohen
Re: How to double frame number keeping same duration?
on Jul 12, 2013 at 12:35:51 am

I tried De:Noise quite a while ago and thought it only softened this material. It's really grainy -- 8mm original. Not even Super-8. Attaching a sample. '

grainyblackandwhite.png

Steve


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Pierre Jasmin
Re: How to double frame number keeping same duration?
on Jul 12, 2013 at 12:48:43 am

I suggested denoising a clip for the motion estimation part (using ALT Motion Source) and maintain the original movie as Color Source to interpolate frames. This way the grain will remain there but the motion calculated from the smoothed source will not clusted in heavy grain areas.


Alt Motion Source: This setting is designed to help you provide an alternate clip to use for tracking.



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Steve Cohen
Re: How to double frame number keeping same duration?
on Jul 15, 2013 at 5:21:28 pm

Pierre,
I've been experimenting with this all weekend and haven't had much luck.

This time I'm in PP. The material looks like the sample frame I uploaded -- B&W, running at 12 fps. To avoid the double nest, I an interpreting the source footage as 24 fps, cutting it into a 24 fps sequence and then applying Twixtor and setting it to 50% speed. This works well, but produces jello-grain artifacts in some scenes.

To test De:Noise, I created a new sequence with two video layers. First layer (v1) has Twixtor+DeNoise, Second layer (v2) has Twixtor alone with Alternate Motion Source set to V1. I've experimented with different amounts of noise reduction. Latest experiment has the least I've tried: Spatial Radius=4/Spatial Threshold=25, Temporal turned off (Process Mode=none). But still, the resulting file has what looks like blended frames rather than Twixtored, optical flow frames -- as if every other frame is a little dissolve of the adjacent frames.

Do you have any suggestions? What am I doing wrong?

Many thanks,
Steve


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Pierre Jasmin
Re: How to double frame number keeping same duration?
on Jul 15, 2013 at 5:31:01 pm

Steve,

12 FPS is hard - You can try turning Motion Sensitivity way down like 30%

Anyhow, at this point if possible the best would be to send a project with footage to techsupport @ revisionfx dot com...

If the content is too large for an email, you can use the Contact form it will return an FTP zone login area

Pierre



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Pierre Jasmin
Re: How to double frame number keeping same duration?
on Jul 5, 2013 at 2:31:44 pm

Ulrich,

Um... it's just straight h264 MPEG in Quicktime
I swap the movie for .mov animation codec

http://www.revisioneffects.com/bugreports/prem/CS6PremProj3.zip

And I just figured the speed issue with Premiere, if you type 200% in Speed in Premiere, it becomes 199.8, you have to redo and type again 200.0 then you don't loose a frame... (same in CC)

Pierre
RE:Vision Effects



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