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Shooting for Twixtor

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Kevin Kerwin
Shooting for Twixtor
on Jan 26, 2009 at 6:23:55 pm

Hi,

I am shooting a one-take project and plan to use Twixtor in FCP post to manipulate. I'm shooting on the EX1 or EX3 - what is the best possible set-up to utilize twixtor's abilities? I imagine the highest possible quality/frame 1080 60p? We are shooting without audio, and eventually blowing up to 35.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Kevin



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Peter Litwinowicz
Re: Shooting for Twixtor
on Jan 26, 2009 at 6:28:13 pm

My main question would be this: If you can shoot 1080 60p, doesn't your camera also have a 24p option? Then you wouldn't need Twixtor at all.

I like selling Twixtor :-), but if you can control the shoot, then you should plan for film at the get-go.

Or do you need to deliver in multiple media?

Pete





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Kevin Kerwin
Re: Shooting for Twixtor
on Jan 26, 2009 at 6:36:13 pm

Yes, there is a 24p option on the camera - it is HD, but isn't twixtor the best way to manipulate the motion (speeding up slowing down quite a bit) rather than time re-mapping in FCP or After Effects? Most video/HD cams now have 24p options. I had read where you want to give twixtor as many fields/frames as possible to work with...?



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Pierre Jasmin
Re: Shooting for Twixtor
on Jan 26, 2009 at 6:42:23 pm


If you are going out to film, and plan to maintain your output 10 bit per channel I would advise the FxPlug version for FCP

And yes the more input frames per second you have, the easier it is for Twixtor, particularly for extreme slowmos.

Note FCP does not support frame rate conversion per se (input at some FPS and output at some other FPS) so you will have to do your slow-mo offline in you like and use a trick like an intermediate pass with QuickTime PRO to convert to still frames.

Pierre



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Peter Litwinowicz
Re: Shooting for Twixtor
on Jan 26, 2009 at 6:45:02 pm

I think I misunderstood your problem.

I though you were just trying to go to film. And shooting 60p to get 24p is not the best way.

However, if you need to retime in the middle of that process, then I would suggest you shoot 60p. And shoot with a decently high shutter speed as well (Twixtor does much better if objects aren't motion blurred). You can always add motion blur with ReelSmart Motion Blur as a post process if your images are too sharp after Twixtor-izing.

Also note; if you need to change frame rates we only support frame rate changes in After Effects and combusion. Note you can perform a frame rate change with FCP and Twixtor, but it involves writing out each frame one-by-one with QT Player and then reading them back into QT PLayer with a different frame rate. This involves quite a bit of time and disk space.

You should try out the demo of Twixtor, and do a comparison test with Twixtor using 60p and 24p shoots. But as you suggested, as a general rule: more frames and less motion blur will give better results.

Pete





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Kevin Kerwin
Re: Shooting for Twixtor
on Jan 26, 2009 at 7:10:42 pm

Thank you for all the prompt and detailed responses, Peter and Pierre. I appreciate it. So, from what I can gather - I should use the AE plug-in as it's more seamless? The FCP plug-in only re-maps the motion, as I understand it and not the frame rates? And I will definitely do a test. And yes, we will be doing a film out but shooting on HD. Thanks again for the help.



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Pierre Jasmin
Re: Shooting for Twixtor
on Jan 26, 2009 at 7:14:51 pm


no,

If you plan to do the Twixtor work in FCP and maintain a 10 bpc process then I would use the FxPlug version of our plugin as the AE version only works in 8bpc in FCP

What Pete is saying, is if you have After Effects or Combustion for example, then you could consider doing Twixtor work in them as they support an input of 60P and output of 24P which would save you an intermediate step.

Pierre



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Kevin Kerwin
Re: Shooting for Twixtor
on Jan 28, 2009 at 3:04:13 am

Thanks again for all your help. We are actually shooting in 8 bit, as the EX1 only goes 8 bit to the SS memory. There is a version which works on both FCP and AE, correct? I am just looking on the site and trying to determine what to get for our editor, who runs both AE and FCP.

Also, there was some discussion as to whether it would benefit Twixtor to overcrank the footage and shoot 720 24p 60 fps and use this as our "native" or "default" footage, if that makes sense. The whole point is elaborating on these "found moments" in this room as we move through it, which obviously this technique is great for...

Thanks for the input,
Kevin



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Pierre Jasmin
Re: Shooting for Twixtor
on Jan 28, 2009 at 3:09:50 am


The AE compatible version of the plugin is what you want then.

There is a value for Twixtor to shoot 60 FPS (results will be at worst better), with caveat that it makes the workflow more difficult inside of FCP (AE deals with that change of frame rate 60 to 24P properly).

Pierre




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Kevin Kerwin
Re: Shooting for Twixtor
on Jan 28, 2009 at 4:11:05 pm

Hi, thanks. Do you mean the "AE compatible version?" or the "Full version for AE"? And what is the difference between these and the FX Plugin version? And if, at some point, we were going to shoot in 10 bit and wanted to use Twixtor shouldn't we go with the FX Plugin - or does that not work with AE? Sorry...trying to figure this out on the twixtor web site. Thanks for the help.



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Pierre Jasmin
Re: Shooting for Twixtor
on Jan 28, 2009 at 6:54:46 pm


FxPlug is Final Cut native plugin format now, it only works in Final Cut (Motion also supports FxPlug but Twixtor does not work well in Motion right now). The FxPlug will support more bits per channel then 8 in Final Cut.

AE compatible plugins (the "The Full version") work in After Effects, Premiere, Combustion and a few other apps. In Final Cut Pro AE compatible plugins are only supported at 8 bpc. No such limit in After Effects, the application. The same AE compatible plugin can work in all these apps.

Sorry for that option, it's Apple decision to only support AE plugins at 8 bits per channel. Note for an extra $99.95 you can get both.

http://revisionfx.com/products/twixtor/pricing/#Final%20Cut%20Pro%20(Apple)

Pierre









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Chad Carlberg
Re: Shooting for Twixtor
on Feb 17, 2009 at 5:32:22 pm

I don't know the camera system, but if your camera shoots 60 progressive frames per second, you're not doing any time remapping, you'll edit in a 24frame timeline and those 60 frames will happen sequentially, slowing you down to exactly 2.5 (24+24+12=60) times real time. This is the way to go unless you want to slow it further.



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Pierre Jasmin
Re: Shooting for Twixtor
on Feb 18, 2009 at 3:58:58 am


not sure, it's maybe true for 60 to 30 but not to 24.
going from 60 to 24 ends up with 2/3/2/3 patterns (jump 2 frames, jump 3 frames, jump 2, jump 3)
60 FPS: [0][1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11]
24 FPS: [0][2.5][5][7.5][10]
which in effect will be (I forget if nearest is before or after when 0.5 in FCP)
so something like frame 0,2,5,7,10,... from the source on the 24p timeline
which is not necessary a pleasant effect on footage with a lot of motion, particularly that at 60 samples per second to start there won't be any Motion blur which would help to remove the stuttering.

Yes you can do frame blending for frame 2.5... but at that point you probably do better with Twixtor calculating the dot 5 frame...

aside the issue that FCP conforms you on input to your settings, so if you try to edit 24P it will read only 24 FPS from the 60 FPS

pierre



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Chad Carlberg
Re: Shooting for Twixtor
on Feb 18, 2009 at 4:44:31 pm

That was all very confusing. The reality is this: I know from a lot of PRACTICAL experience that shooting 24PN with a frame rate of 60FPS gets you EXACTLY 60 whole frames per second, which, when added to a 24frame timeline gives you PRECISELY 2.5x slow mo. 48 gives you 2x, 36 1.5x etc.

Just try it. Waste less time. You'll see that I'm right. There's no interpolation involved. Period.

p.s. when you are shooting slow-mo, always shoot PN. When you want to shoot the effect of 12fps, shoot it 24P. Shooting 24PN will give you 2x speed rather than frame double.





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Pierre Jasmin
Re: Shooting for Twixtor
on Feb 19, 2009 at 1:57:18 am


Ignore the camera for a second,
Say you render in AE at 60P (60 full frames per second) an animated counter that changes of a value at each frame (1,2,3,...) as a quicktime movie, and you import that in FCP in a 24P project it will and can only skip some frame (unless you intermediate to still image sequence - then of course it will be 2.5 slow mo on load).





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Chad Carlberg
Re: Shooting for Twixtor
on Feb 21, 2009 at 12:21:35 am

Ignore Pierre for a second,
Skip After Effects. Shoot 24PN at 60frames. Import p2 from FCP. Watch it in a 24P sequence. No render. perfect 2.5x slow. It will cover 60 frames exactly.

Just for kicks, import it into a 60fps timeline, it will be exactly one second.

p.s. Pierre obviously knows 10,0000x more than I. I'm not even placating him; that's true. But this is one thing that I know very well. I do it for a living. My company is Slow Motion For a Living With FCP and HVX200, inc.



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