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Canon C300 frame rates question

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John Knowles
Canon C300 frame rates question
on Nov 18, 2014 at 10:58:22 pm

Hi there, hope somebody with a C300 (or working knowledge of one) can help me out. We're going to purchase one for the show we're working on and wanted to know if pulldown could be added internally on the camera. Specifically, can it shoot 24p but produce files that are 29.97? We want that the 24p look in the footage but need to deliver 29.97 for broadcast; we can do that in editing but I wanted to see if we could shoot that way and just avoid the conversion down the road.

TIA,

JVK



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Todd Terry
Re: Canon C300 frame rates question
on Nov 18, 2014 at 11:19:44 pm

I shoot the C300 every day.

I'd have to investigate that, but I can say with relative assurance that the camera cannot do that. If you shoot at 23.976fps or true 24fps, you get those frame rates on your files. They are not in a 29.97 wrapper, nor do I know any way for the camera to record so that they are. I will NOT swear to that, but I sure don't think so.

We do exactly what you do, as most of what we produce winds up on the boob tube (television commercials). However we do not shoot in 24p and finish in 60i the way that some people do. We shoot in 24p and edit, do all post, and finish in 24p as well. We generate a 24p master. From that master we make our 60i broadcast files.

We do it that way because if you have a 24p master, you can always easily make a great-looking 60i version. But if you shoot 60i, (even if it is 24p in a 60i wrapper), you can never make a 24p version that doesn't look like a converted interlaced version. Very often we need a progressive version of a spot (for example, if a client wants to put it on their website, or YouTube). For those, we use the 24p master... much much cleaner when viewed on a computer's progressive monitor.

You can download the full operators manual in PDF form from the Canon website. Pour through that and it might tell you something that I don't know... but again I don't think you can do that.

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com



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John Knowles
Re: Canon C300 frame rates question
on Nov 18, 2014 at 11:23:21 pm

That's awesome, thank you Todd!

Yeah I'm looking into doing in on the post side, cutting everything at 23.98 and then making a 29.97 version for broadcast from that. Do you guys use any special calculation to get the frame count exact when you deliver? The length gets screwed up when you convert from 23.98 to 29.97

JVK



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John Knowles
Re: Canon C300 frame rates question
on Nov 19, 2014 at 5:43:31 am

The only reference to pulldown in the manual is for output via SDI, to convert 23.98 to 59.94 for broadcast preview.

It says it will shoot 29.97 progressive (30p) -- have you ever shot at that frame rate? How does it compare to 24p?

JVK



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Todd Terry
Re: Canon C300 frame rates question
on Nov 19, 2014 at 6:02:45 am

As for "The length gets screwed up when you convert from 23.98 to 29.97"...

I'm not sure about that. Something tells me that you are working with much longer productions. The vast majority of mine are :30 commercials, and they convert fine. A 24p master is 720 frames, and when we output a version at 60i (29.97) it is exactly 900 frames, which is what it is supposed to be.

The only thing that I can think of is that maybe it is a dropframe/non-dropframe timecode issue, which could cause problems with a longer production. If you, for example, convert a 24p master and output a new 60i master and view its timecode in non-dropframe mode (or put it on a non-dropframe timeline), then yes the length will be off by a few frames (depending on how long it is). Or rather, it will appear to be an incorrect length, based on the timecode numbers. In actually, the length is correct, but the timecode is lying to you because you should be viewing it as dropframe (which is real actual world time) rather than non-dropframe. Dropframe mode does not actually drop any frames, of course, but at specific point drops frames of the timecode count to keep the timing true. For a broadcast project, you should always use dropframe. Could that be it??


[John Knowles] "It says it will shoot 29.97 progressive (30p) -- have you ever shot at that frame rate? How does it compare to 24p?"

I shoot virtually everything at 24p, as that is usually the look I am after. Only once or twice have I shot at 30p, at a client's request for a specific project. As to "How does it compare," I'm not sure how to answer that. It works fine, one performs as well at the other. Of course it looks slightly different, one looking like 24fps and one looking like 30fps... naturally. Personally I don't think 30p has nearly the filmic look of 24p, but it also doesn't have quite the live "video-y" look of 60i.

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com



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John Knowles
Re: Canon C300 frame rates question
on Nov 19, 2014 at 7:25:18 am

I output some sample clips today (I have some 23.98 MXF footage from a C300) and compared them. 2 minutes of 23.98 footage that's converted to 29.97 (or nested in a new sequence) times out at 2 minutes and four frames. I think you're right though, it's probably the drop frame settings; I'll double-check those when I'm back in the office.



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Daniel Shojaei
Re: Canon C300 frame rates question
on Mar 10, 2015 at 3:25:06 pm

Its defiantly the drop fame setting. I've had that issue before too.

Daniel Shojaei

CEO - Ontario Camera Rentals
http://www.ontariocamera.com
51 Jefferson Ave
Toronto, Ontario
Canada
647-345-8220
Info@ontariocamera.com


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