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Ron Ressler
Burning 720p to NON Blu Ray disk using Architect
on Dec 26, 2013 at 1:52:38 am

Hello,

I am upgrading to edit HD video and I have a “burning” question:

I just bought a Philips HD player, a typical player I got from Best Buys. It supports about everything except Blu Ray. I want to render .AVI 720p files and burn to DVDs. I do not want to use Blu Ray because my productions are not that long and I want to be able to sell my DVDs without “player-limitation”.

I was thinking that all I need to do is buy blank double-layer DVDs (and DL burner), burn my 720p .AVI file onto it (rendered from Vegas) and sell my DVDs.

I’ve been reading into the specs of DVD Architect 5.0 and all I see is Blu Ray this/that. WILL 5.0 allow me to burn my 720p .AVI to a leading brand DL DVD, which would then be playable on my Philips or any common HD player?

Second question: On a related matter; I've been reading conflicting opinions on forums regarding the resolution limitations for standard DVDs. Some people say standard DVDs will not allow above 720x480. Others say it will allow it. I see that my current burning software has resolution defaults which do not include HD settings. So is it that the physical DVDs are resolution-limited or is it the burning-software preventing an HD burn?

Thank you for reading!

Ron


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Steve Brame
Re: Burning 720p to NON Blu Ray disk using Architect
on Dec 26, 2013 at 3:35:12 am

The DVD specification is Standard Definition MPEG2 only. Not 720p or AVI. There is no such thing as an HD DVD.

Asus P6X58D Premium * Core i7 950 * 24GB RAM * nVidia Quadro 4000 * Windows 7 Premium 64bit * System Drive - WD Caviar Black 500GB * 2nd Drive(Pagefile, Previews) - WD Velociraptor 10K drive 600GB * Media Drive - 2TB RAID0 (4 - WD Caviar Black 500GB drive) * Matrox MX02 Mini * Adobe CC
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"98% of all computer issues can be solved by simply pressing 'F1'."
Steve Brame
creative illusions Productions


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Ron Ressler
Re: Burning 720p to NON Blu Ray disk using Architect
on Dec 26, 2013 at 5:47:33 am

I render AVI files all the time that I then burn to DVD which of
course converts it into an MPEG2. Your response tells me you did not read my post carefully. Please take another look at it and let me know the answer I seek if you can.

Thanks.


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Steve Brame
Re: Burning 720p to NON Blu Ray disk using Architect
on Dec 26, 2013 at 2:17:30 pm

Funny...I can "burn AVI's to a DVD" all day long and they are not "of course" converted to MPEG2. Now, if I use a DVD authoring program, such as Adobe Encore, and burn THAT project to a DVD, Encore will TRANSCODE that AVI to MPEG2, but at that point I am NOT "burning an AVI to a DVD".

Words have meanings. I read your post very carefully, I just took it literally, and wasn't in a position to read your mind as to what you actually meant to say when you wrote it.

Have a nice day.

Asus P6X58D Premium * Core i7 950 * 24GB RAM * nVidia Quadro 4000 * Windows 7 Premium 64bit * System Drive - WD Caviar Black 500GB * 2nd Drive(Pagefile, Previews) - WD Velociraptor 10K drive 600GB * Media Drive - 2TB RAID0 (4 - WD Caviar Black 500GB drive) * Matrox MX02 Mini * Adobe CC
-------------------------------------------
"98% of all computer issues can be solved by simply pressing 'F1'."
Steve Brame
creative illusions Productions


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eric pautsch
Re: Burning 720p to NON Blu Ray disk using Architect
on Dec 26, 2013 at 5:52:44 pm

DVD is 720x480 NTSC or 720x576 PAL

So you want to sell discs with HD avi files on them? I'm confused too :)



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Ron Ressler
Re: Burning 720p to NON Blu Ray disk using Architect
on Dec 26, 2013 at 6:02:36 pm

Hi Eric,

I guess I should not have gone into the AVI thing. I’m trying to understand a few things at once but the bottom line questions are this;

1) Will Architect 5.0 allow me to burn a 720p to a DL DVD?
2) Will a DL DVD maintain 720p or downsize it to 480?
3) If I can in fact burn it to the DL and the DL does keeps it
at 720p, will it be playable on a typical (non blue ray)
HD player?

Thanks,

Ron


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eric pautsch
Re: Burning 720p to NON Blu Ray disk using Architect
on Dec 26, 2013 at 6:13:00 pm

Let's use the word "DVD" correctly. All DVDs are standard def. These are the format that play in your typical DVD player all these years.

Now you can burn data to DVD discs but that doesn't make it a DVD.....it's just an avi file on disc

1. No....because it's a dvd authoring tool

2. It will down convert it if you're making a DVD. If you just want to burn a file into disc, the file will remain what it is

3. What is this non bluray HD player? Model #? You mean the Phillips Media Player?



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Ron Ressler
Re: Burning 720p to NON Blu Ray disk using Architect
on Dec 26, 2013 at 6:16:13 pm

Yes, I just bought it, model #DVP2880


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eric pautsch
Re: Burning 720p to NON Blu Ray disk using Architect
on Dec 26, 2013 at 6:29:30 pm

Thats just a regular DVD player which happens to play data discs with AVIs on them.

I wouldn't sell data discs with 720p videos on them since most players don't play these files.

If you want to sell HD video to consumers you need to go to Bluray



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Ron Ressler
Re: Burning 720p to NON Blu Ray disk using Architect
on Dec 26, 2013 at 6:37:34 pm

But Eric if I did that then the customer could only play it
"if" he owned a BR player.. right?


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eric pautsch
Re: Burning 720p to NON Blu Ray disk using Architect
on Dec 26, 2013 at 6:42:46 pm

That's correct. There are only 2 consumer, disc based formats: DVD and Bluray. One Is SD and one is HD



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Ron Ressler
Re: Burning 720p to NON Blu Ray disk using Architect
on Dec 27, 2013 at 3:49:54 pm

I think what mixed me up was the player's use of the term upscaling.
On the one hand it represents itself as an HDMI 1080p yet according to what you're telling me, it does not actually play a true HD disk. It simply upscales a lesser dimension to the HDTV as full 1080p.

Is my conclusion accurate?


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eric pautsch
Re: Burning 720p to NON Blu Ray disk using Architect
on Dec 27, 2013 at 5:09:27 pm

It will upscale a DVD to 1080p and it will play your 720p data disc but that's not the issue. The problem is what format are you going to provide customers?

You need to make a Bluray if you want to provide HD to the widest customers base



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Ron Ressler
Re: Burning 720p to NON Blu Ray disk using Architect
on Dec 27, 2013 at 5:21:16 pm

Well, at this point I feel I have to simply work under the assumption that the typical HDMI players will upscale and customers
will see it in the best HD I can offer. Also I can burn a blu ray
version for those that have it.

Let me ask you this; In terms of rendering a video for a normal DVD, expecting it to be played on typical HDTV, should I render it in widescreen NTSC or 720p (with an understanding it will be scaled down)? I ask because I feel a scaled down version might give me a crisper image (as pixel compression sometimes does) but also I am concerned about the proper screen size for the HDTV. I don't
know is NTSC widescreen will fit the HDTV as perfectly as 720 would.


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Dave Haynie
Re: Burning 720p to NON Blu Ray disk using Architect
on Dec 27, 2013 at 6:20:18 pm

Your best render will be rendering MPEG-2 (widescreen, assuming its show in HD) from your original sources. There is always a small loss in quality going through multiple rendering steps... original -> 480p is better than original -> 720p -> 480p.

-Dave


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Dave Haynie
Re: Burning 720p to NON Blu Ray disk using Architect
on Dec 27, 2013 at 6:28:45 pm

Upscaling means the player plays a normal everyday 480i or 480p video from a normal everyday DVD, but runs it through some realtime video DSP algorithms to "upscale" to 1080i or 1080p. What this means is that, first, there's an resolution upscale, followed by some line detection and sharpening algorithms, maybe some magical proprietary stuff, to make your eye think the DVD is higher resolution that it actually is.

Every HDTV does the same thing when presented with material that's not in its native screen resolution. However, particularly in the past, HDTVs often had just plain bad upscaling algorithms. So DVD players included presumably better ones. At least, that's the nice and useful explanation. The other explanation is that DVD player manufacturers needed a new thing every year to make their DVD players sound better than last year's. So one year they added 480p output, another they added HDMI with upscaling, then Blu-ray... pretty much a feature of all DVD players over $50 these days, and finally, "smartTV"... they also hook to the internet and let you watch YouTube or Netflix or whatever.

Upscaling really can be a nice thing, when done well. I've been using my Sony PS3 as my primary DVD/BD player since it came out. At some point along the way, they updated the upscaling algorithm, and it was a noticeable improvement. But upscaling is all post-processing, it has nothing to do with what a player will play, only how it can deliver it to your TV.

-Dave


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Miguel Almanza
Re: Burning 720p to NON Blu Ray disk using Architect
on Dec 30, 2013 at 7:51:20 am

1) Will Architect 5.0 allow me to burn a 720p to a DL DVD?
Yes. It depends also on your DVD burner's capabilities.

2) Will a DL DVD maintain 720p or downsize it to 480?
A DL DVD just means two layers of capacity (4.7Gb times two for a total of about 9.4 Gb of capacity). The maintaining of 720p or 480p depends on the authoring program or how you rendered the video. Standard DVD is 720p.

3) If I can in fact burn it to the DL and the DL does keeps it
at 720p, will it be playable on a typical (non blue ray)
HD player?
Yes, but again, it will depend on external factors like authoring software or rendering. A dual-layer DVD with 720p footage will play like a 720p-footage DVD on capable players. There are progressive-scan and "upscale" DVD players, but they will not play BLU-ray or High Definition streams.

I saw a bit of the answers and I think you may be confused with HD (1080x720 and above) and SD/DVD (720x480) dimensions of video. I hope I understood your questions correctly.


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Dave Haynie
Re: Burning 720p to NON Blu Ray disk using Architect
on Dec 30, 2013 at 8:55:37 am

[Miguel Almanza] "1) Will Architect 5.0 allow me to burn a 720p to a DL DVD?
Yes. It depends also on your DVD burner's capabilities."


That is incorrect. The DVD-Video format does not support 720p video. You could burn a short Blu-ray to a DVD5 or DVD9 disc, using the Blu-ray supported 720p formats (1280x720p60, 1280x720p50, or 1280x720p24) but it would not play in any DVD player. And virtually no Blu-ray players.


[Miguel Almanza] "2) Will a DL DVD maintain 720p or downsize it to 480?
A DL DVD just means two layers of capacity (4.7Gb times two for a total of about 9.4 Gb of capacity). The maintaining of 720p or 480p depends on the authoring program or how you rendered the video. Standard DVD is 720p."


Most of that is incorrect. DVD supports a number of resolutions. For NTSC, the highest resolutions are 720x480i60 or 720x480p24; in PAL, you can do 720x576i50. That's it... no 720p to be found (try not to confuse horizontal vs. vertical resolution... we're usually talking about vertical resolution, and always when only one dimension is quoted).

[Miguel Almanza] "3) If I can in fact burn it to the DL and the DL does keeps it
at 720p, will it be playable on a typical (non blue ray)
HD player?
Yes, but again, it will depend on external factors like authoring software or rendering. A dual-layer DVD with 720p footage will play like a 720p-footage DVD on capable players. There are progressive-scan and "upscale" DVD players, but they will not play BLU-ray or High Definition streams. "


The disc size has nothing to do with the data format. There is no data format that will play at 720p (which again means 1280x720, eg, base-level high definition) on standard DVD players. DVD Architect will not create a DVD-Video format in 720p. If you give it a 720p video source file, it will re-encode based on project settings to one of the aforementioned 480i/p or 576i formats.

[Miguel Almanza] "I saw a bit of the answers and I think you may be confused with HD (1080x720 and above) and SD/DVD (720x480) dimensions of video. I hope I understood your questions correctly."

I'm not sure he's the only one confused. There is no 1080x720 format, either. Standard Blu-ray resolutions including 1920x1080i60, 1920x1080i50, 1920x1080p24, 1440x1080i60, 1440x1080i50, 1440x1080p24, 1280x720p60, 1280x720p50, and 1280x720p24. Also supported are DVD legacy resolutions at 720x480i60 and 720x576i50.

-Dave


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Ron Ressler
Re: Burning 720p to NON Blu Ray disk using Architect
on Dec 30, 2013 at 6:46:37 pm

Dave,

if Miguel is incorrect, I'm very happy you responded (no disrespect to you Miguel). It's just that so much of what Miguel said is what I wanted to hear yet very contrary to the other responses I received.

Dave, here is the question; A CD-Rom certainly does not care about any file specifications when it comes to saving a data-file. Why should a DVD offer a restriction on dimension?

This is why I opened this post on the question of Architect. I just assumed the authoring software makes the dimension-decisions.

What exactly is it about the physical DVD that's halting a larger dimension, that even the authoring software can not override it? And if the answer is format-coding, what's preventing anyone of the many DVD disk manufacturers from simply re-coding to allow the same dimensions as the original video file?

My logic is telling me its about the authoring software yet my post-responses are telling me its the disk. I just want to know how and why.

Thanks,

Ron


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Dave Haynie
Re: Burning 720p to NON Blu Ray disk using Architect
on Dec 30, 2013 at 11:30:52 pm

Once again, you can put any old data file on a DVD. Well, judt about... some DVD disc formats have limits. But sure, write whatever you want to a DVD. Just don't expect any DVD player to automatically do anything with it.

This will not involve DVD architect in any way. DVD architect is an authoring tool for DVD-Video, BDAV, and BDMV formats. Each of this is certainly a data format but DVD Architect will not produce a non-conforming format, because no DVD player will know what to do with it.

The format specifications make the resolution decisions. That the reason you have a pretty good expectation of any old DVD playing on any old DVD player. The tools for creating these specific formats, like DVD Architect, create only those industry standard formats. You are free to make something that will only play on one DVD playermodel if you chose to to that, but don't expect the standards based tools to support that.

I'm not sure whar you mean by "recoding to the original dimensions"... you are suggesting that a player should recognize a non-standard format and downscale on the fly? Most DVD players lack any sort of video DSP that would make that possible. This is very tighly defined embedded ekectronics... no one's paying extra for features that will never be used. It's true that some recent DVD players can do video DSP like upscaling, higher resolution playback, etc. In fact, for just about any DVD player over about $50 we have a name for that: Blu-ray. A whole set if actual standards for this, so a manufacturer will know up front that the player can play every disc. It wouldbe stupid to make that some kind of guessing game.

-Dave


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Miguel Almanza
Re: Burning 720p to NON Blu Ray disk using Architect
on Dec 30, 2013 at 8:10:52 pm

Dave, your response is way more accurate than mine. I misread the beginning part. It was about 720p for high definition and I was thinking standard DVD definition. I think that the only thing I said right in all that was the capacity of the dual-layer disc.

No offense taken because he's right, Ron.


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Dave Haynie
Re: Burning 720p to NON Blu Ray disk using Architect
on Dec 27, 2013 at 6:17:23 pm

[Ron Ressler] "I just bought a Philips HD player, a typical player I got from Best Buys. It supports about everything except Blu Ray. I want to render .AVI 720p files and burn to DVDs. I do not want to use Blu Ray because my productions are not that long and I want to be able to sell my DVDs without “player-limitation”."

Well, you're already asking for the worst kind of "player-limitation" here. AVI is just a file wrapper -- you can put most anything inside it. A PC can, of course, load up new video CODECs for support different AVI file contents. A DVD player cannot. Most DVD players don't support any kind of AVI file. Those that do may differ in what they support: standard definition DV, DivX (which comes in several different formats), etc.

You can put anything you like on a DVD... it's just a data disc. However, DVD players only know how to auto-run DVD-Video formats, for the most part. A DVD-Video in NTSC can be 720x480, or a couple of lower resolutions. That's it. You can put other files on the DVD and most DVD players will just ignore them, but they won't decide to just automatically play some random AVI file.

[Ron Ressler] "I’ve been reading into the specs of DVD Architect 5.0 and all I see is Blu Ray this/that. WILL 5.0 allow me to burn my 720p .AVI to a leading brand DL DVD, which would then be playable on my Philips or any common HD player?"

DVD Architect, like pretty much all DVD/BD authoring programs, only makes legal formats. You can make a DVD-Video file structure or a Blu-ray file structure. DVD Architect will happily burn the DVD file structure for you on to an appropriate DVD blank. It can also burn a Blu-ray file structure to a BD-R or an appropriate DVD, if the content is small enough. However, no DVD players and even most Blu-ray players will not play a BD file structure burned onto a DVD. They just won't.

No DVD players but most Blu-ray players WILL play a DVD formatted as an AVCHD disc. AVCHD is, of course, the camcorder format derived from Blu-ray, but not identical to Blu-ray. DVD Architect will not create an AVCHD file structure, but you can create a simple one from the appropriate AVC files, using open source tools. But given that this only plays on Blu-ray players (or PCs with Blu-ray player software), you might as well just distribute on Blu-ray.

Before Blu-ray, I had a red-laser DVD player from Japan, one made by a company called IOData, that could actually play lower complexity HD formats. It could auto-play Microsoft's WMV/HD format, and if I made a "hybrid" disc... basically the file for both DVD and WMV/HD, it would offer me the choice of which format to play. This would play as a DVD in pretty much every other DVD or Blu-ray player known to mankind, though it would play on Windows PCs. Sometimes. Clearly not something I ought to charge people for.

Given that some DVD players have trouble playing DVD-DL/DVD+DL discs, these discs are way more expensive than DVD5s or even BD25s, you'd be way, way better off doing it the way Hollywood does: sell a 2-disc set, one DVD, one BD. That's the only way you're going to be able to get HD video to any but the very fringe of users.

-Dave


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