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Conceptual: Stereo AVCHD on a Red Laser DVD

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Michael Kammes
Conceptual: Stereo AVCHD on a Red Laser DVD
on Jan 26, 2011 at 7:22:06 pm

Hey Gang-

Posted this in the Compression Techniques forum with no responses...thought I may try here.

I had a notion...

I'll dispense with HOW to do this, as I hope anyone answering this know what I'm referring too.

If the way to author a poor man's *cough* BluRay is to create an AVCHD file and burn it on a Red Laser SD DVD... (which doesn't look half bad, BTW)...

Thus, has anyone played with a way to create a stereoscopic 3D AVCHD file for the same red laser burn on SD DVD? I would be more interested in an MVC encode than a SbS or O/U or Interlaced, which would result in a loss of quality. Is this encode (not burn) possible with a non Sonic / Netblender encoding solution, so an SD red laser burn is possible?

Any input - even discussion, is appreciated.

Thanks!

~Michael



.: michael kammes mpse
.: senior applications editor . post workflow consultant
.: audio specialist . act fcp . acsr
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Dave Haynie
Re: Conceptual: Stereo AVCHD on a Red Laser DVD
on Jan 27, 2011 at 5:04:40 am

Well, there are lots of practical concerns: can you get an MVC bitstream into an AVCHD build (short answer: I'm sure there's a freeware tool that could do the job with some hacking, if no other simple option presents itself), and would a 3D BD player recognize it as 3D.

The limitation, otherwise, is going to be bitrate. The AVCHD format supports a maximum of 18Mb/s on DVD... that's essentially a double-rate DVD. Some players go faster, but you can't rely on it. So the MVC stream would have to still be 18Mb/s, meaning the main stream would max out at 12Mb/s or so.

Naturally, a pure side-by-side at 960x1080x2 would work, and transparently to all AVCHD creation software... just the way Panasonic's consumer 3D camcorders work. You don't even need a 3D Blu-Ray player, but you have to have a TV that supports SbS, and manually set that mode. Either way, you're taking a resolution loss.. I would bet the MVC version looks better on most material, even with the lower bitrate.

-Dave


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Michael Kammes
Re: Conceptual: Stereo AVCHD on a Red Laser DVD
on Jan 27, 2011 at 3:32:18 pm

Thanks for the input, Dave!

All are valid concerns. I'm trying to stray away from the SbS, O/U or interlaced modes, as the quality loss would (and is) too great.


I've been unable to track down a - shall we say - prosumer MVC encoder; that features tends to be in high end apps, for obvious reasons. If any come to mind, I'm all ears.

~Michael



.: michael kammes mpse
.: senior applications editor . post workflow consultant
.: audio specialist . act fcp . acsr
.: michaelkammes.com

Hear me pontificate: Speaking Schedule .


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Dave Haynie
Re: Conceptual: Stereo AVCHD on a Red Laser DVD
on Jan 27, 2011 at 9:25:32 pm

Yup. Plus, MVC is (will be) the proper delivery format.. the Blu-ray players worries about the actual formats supported on the TV. I tend to think that things like 960x1080p side-by-side and interlaced formats are temporary... you want the thing that's going to work, both with today's technologies and tomorrows. MVC lets the player decide.

But yeah... you would kind of imagine that, since Vegas is doing the 3D editing, Sony would consider it a priority (theirs, not mine) to deliver 3D authoring in DVDA. And like all DVDA stuff, totally above the board BD creation. That would demand MVC support, in Vegas or in DVDA.

I don't know of any MVC encoder that's no sold at "Hollywood" prices. Nor any 3D BD authoring solution, with or without integral 3D support (eg, even a 2D authoring program needs tweaks to allow an MVC stream as a valid asset).

But that's not a shock. Vegas got HD support long before they offered any real solutions for HD delivery. Of course, that's easy to not worry about when there's no standard. The 3D-HD delivery standard was out before Vegas 10. So ok, they didn't have the resources to roll 3D into DVDA. It would be a very useful thing for Sony to officially set the record straight on 3D vs. non-3D support in DVDA.

And while I'm not offended by 3D support or anything, this is one of those things that we feared, when The Sonic Foundry was bought by Sony. To their credit, they didn't do most of the terrible things these mergers usually see.

However, prior to Sony's buy-out, Vegas was the absolute top-of-the-line application. There was no compelling reason, other than development resources, to leave any feature out of Vegas. But Sony can sell Blu-Print for crazy Hollywood money. They have an interest in not making DVDA anywhere near as capable.

And on the flip side, I think 3D was put into Vegas because Sony sees 3D as the Next Big Thing. I'm not sure most Vegas users even had 3D on their radar. And while I never have a problem with any new feature, assuming it doesn't have an otherwise-bad effect on the program... it's never that simple Each new feature represents a development cost... some other new feature did not get implemented, so that this one could be. Did I get 3D at the price of edit-time GPU acceleration? No idea ... but I know which one is more useful to the most existing Vegas users. In Sony's defense, though, 3D might be better at making new sales. And we all ultimately benefit, the more people use Vegas.

-Dave


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eric pautsch
Re: Conceptual: Stereo AVCHD on a Red Laser DVD
on Jan 27, 2011 at 10:52:12 pm

3DBD technology is still in beta...it will be sometime before you see anything on the prosumer level



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Dave Haynie
Re: Conceptual: Stereo AVCHD on a Red Laser DVD
on Jan 28, 2011 at 8:10:06 am

3DBD technology is still in beta...it will be sometime before you see anything on the prosumer level

That's incorrect. Blu-ray Profile 5 was officially released, in final form, on December 17, 2009. This adds the 3D support, via MVC, as well as upping the peak data rate from 48Mb/s to 72Mb/s. Naturally, it takes awhile for manufacturers and software vendors to respond to a new spec, but look around.. most new BD players support 3D. The PS3 got a 3D software upgrade last summer.

It's a specification -- there's no "beta" on a spec. It's either official, or still in development, but there's no testing phase. Any given implementation of that spec might be in beta testing. But in fact, there are several high-end professional BD3D authoring systems in full commercial release already. There are many discs already released... again, not something you would be doing based on a spec in flux.

Home 3D itself is still very much a work in progress. But that's on the television technology. The Blu-ray stuff was designed to allow players to reformat based on the evolving viewing solutions. I'm still waiting for something worthwhile... or a 4K television. That's the upgrade after 3D.

MVC isn't only of use to BD. I looked around and found this: http://research.nokia.com/page/5092. Didn't compile it, the intent is to let you create MVC AVC files for Nokia smart phones running Maemo, created from a Windows or Linux shell. Maybe it scales up to BD size? Anyway, the source code is included, so in theory, it COULD with some work.

-Dave


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eric pautsch
Re: Conceptual: Stereo AVCHD on a Red Laser DVD
on Jan 28, 2011 at 1:43:56 pm

Yes I'm aware of that but working with these authoring tools on a daily basis, I can tell you there are lots of issues and work-arounds at the productions level. So it is effectively still beta technology at this point. The Spec is nice and all on paper but to get these tools to implement it is another story - Especially for people who comb the Cow.



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