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Maximum DVD Master Quality For Replication

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peter dunphy
Maximum DVD Master Quality For Replication
on Dec 19, 2009 at 1:22:23 am


Hi Guys

Delving into the world of Replication for the first time and would appreciate any thoughts you have on the following please:

Prior to having my DVD replicated (a glass master taken from my DVD Master which is used to press the multiple DVDs) I just wanted to check I'm doing the right things in creating my DVD Master prior to getting things underway with the replication facility.

I will be using a Taiyo Yuden 4.7GB DVD-R as my DVD Master.

The video length is 46mins 33seconds

I created a DVD moving menu in DVD Studio Pro (M2V file and AC3 files used) - the asset duration is 1min 24 secs.

I plan to use the maximum possible bitrate as I want it to be the best possible quality for replication, as opposed to compatibility will many different types of DVD players (lower bitrate).

1. I read the following kindly-shared post about achieving maximum quality on a DVD somewhere in the Cow forums and was wondering whether it could also be applied to my aforementioned project also?

"modify the DVD presets. The 90 minute preset is not the highest quality you can get. When you export to compressor choose the 90 minute preset and then click on the video file under the setting column. That will open up the inspector window. Clich on the quality tab under the inspector window. Under MODE click two pass VBR. Move the average bit rate tab to 7.7. This will also move the Maximum bit rate to 9.0. Click the GOP tab. Change the Gop Structure to IP. Next change the GOP size to 6. Click SAVE AS and save your setting in an easy to remember name. THis setting will help achieve the maximum quality but will limit you to around an hour of video on your DVD."

2. Would I perhaps need to ask the replication facility for what bitrates they prefer?

3. Once I hand over the DVD Master, I plan to ask the replication facility to examine the DVD Master for data errors, warn me of any potential issues, then send me a proof DVD so I can test it. If the proof plays okay, because the replication facility are also designing the DVD cases and disc art I might ask whether they are licensed to include the DVD logo in the case/disc art also. How does this sound please?

4. If a replication facility doesn't have DVD Studio Pro, when they create a Glass Master from my DVD Master, would they be normally able to preserve the functionality of the buttons e.g. Press Play ? I suppose this might be a question for the replication facility themselves but was just wondering if most replication facilities could completely 'rip' a DVD Master and manage to retain DVD Studio Pro assets and functionality.

Any thoughts whatsoever would really be appreciated.

Warm regards


Peter

Peter Dunphy

2 x 2.66 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon, 8 GB 1066 MHz DDR3, ATI Radeon HD 4870, ATTO ExpressSAS R380, Sonnet D800 Raid 5


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cowcowcowcowcow
eric pautsch
Re: Maximum DVD Master Quality For Replication
on Dec 20, 2009 at 1:24:47 am

Several mistakes you are making here:

1. You do not send a DVD-R to a replication plant. Output a DDP image and stick this on a pen drive and deliver that. DVDSP allows this very important step - so use it! :) There can be burn issue on a burnable format as well.

2. Using the Max bitrate can be an issue. Newbies often crank this up think its their path to the best quality disc. DVD has a limit of 9.8 mb/s (just over 10 mb/s for audio and video combinbed). But since all encoders will introduce some kind of bitrate spiking, you just might go over that limit.

The link from the Cow you shared is about the worst advice I'm seen on here!

Compression is give and take. There are so many variables: source quality, length of the film and the encoder itself. Some encoders are awful and Compressor is one of them (my opinion only)

My advice is to do some testing with different bitrates so see if you notice differences. But first you need to do a bit budget with a calcualtor. There are several available on-line. This will give you the optimun bitrate for the length of material you have on the title. Based on what you posted, Id say go with a CBR bitrate of around 8 mb/s and be done with it. But it all depends on what you are encoding. Its also important to get a bitrate viewer and make sure your bitrates are the 9.8 ceiling - do a search for one of those on line as well.

Bitrates don't matter to replication facilities

When you replicate it allows you to apply the DVD-Video logo.

Replcation facilities dont need the same tool you author in. They just take the info off the disc and start presses plastic.



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peter dunphy
Re: Maximum DVD Master Quality For Replication
on Jan 3, 2010 at 8:17:04 pm

Hi Eric

Sorry for delay in replying to your kind, valuable post due to personal circumstances. I really appreciate you taking the time to reply.

I have got cracking with the advice you offered and would appreciate it if you, or anyone else reading this, would be kind enough to offer your thoughts on the following:

Right now I would like to create the best possible DDP image file possible, for the replication house.

1. Is it an .img file I should be outputting from DVDSP?

The video was originally HDV 50i (Canon XHA1) which was captured into FCP as standard ProRes422 and edited and rendered entirely in standard ProRes422 and output from FCP as a standard ProRes 422 1920 x 1080 QT File.

Using BitrateCalc I entered 46:33 into Video Length, and selected Type: DVD

2. For DVD I selected 1 x 4.37 DVD5 (am not sure of the capacity of the DVD discs the replication house will be using but 4.37 is pretty common isn't it?

3. Should I maybe ask the replication house what capacity DVD discs they intend to use, and then return to BitrateCalc with my findings?

Anyway, with 4.37 DVD5 selected the results are:

Calculated bitrate: 9576 kbit/s
Authoring overhead (2%): 90 MBx
Estimated audio size: 77 MBs
Estimated vide size: 4399 MBs
Estimated size on disc: 4566 M

"Id say go with a CBR bitrate of around 8 mb/s and be done with it."

4. In Compressor I have a choice of One Pass CBR - is this okay do you think?

5. Should I also maybe choose a GOP structure setting (Open/Closed, IBBP, IP, IBP, GOP Size)?

6. As regards a Bitrate Viewer I'm having trouble locating one for Mac - any suggestions where I might find one please?

Any thoughts whatsoever would be really appreciated.

Happy New Year!

Peter


Peter Dunphy

2 x 2.66 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon, 8 GB 1066 MHz DDR3, ATI Radeon HD 4870, ATTO ExpressSAS R380, Sonnet D800 Raid 5


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peter dunphy
Re: Maximum DVD Master Quality For Replication
on Jan 3, 2010 at 8:28:40 pm

Hi Eric

Sorry for delay in replying to your kind, valuable post due to personal circumstances. I really appreciate you taking the time to reply.

I have got started with the advice you offered and would appreciate it if you, or anyone else reading this, would be kind enough to offer your thoughts on the following:

Right now I would like to create the best possible DDP image file possible, for the replication house.

Is it an .img file I should be outputting from DVDSP?

The video was originally HDV 50i (Canon XHA1) which was captured into FCP as standard ProRes422 and edited and rendered entirely in standard ProRes422 and output from FCP as a standard ProRes 422 1920 x 1080 QT File.

Using BitrateCalc I entered 46:33 into Video Length, and selected Type: DVD

For DVD I selected 1 x 4.37 DVD5 (am not sure of the capacity of the DVD discs the replication house will be using but 4.37 is pretty common isn't it?

Should I maybe ask the replication house what capacity DVD discs they intend to use, and then return to BitrateCalc with my findings?

Anyway, with 4.37 DVD5 selected the results are:

Calculated bitrate: 9576 kbit/s
Authoring overhead (2%): 90 MBx
Estimated audio size: 77 MBs
Estimated vide size: 4399 MBs
Estimated size on disc: 4566 M

"Id say go with a CBR bitrate of around 8 mb/s and be done with it."

In Compressor I have a choice of One Pass CBR - is this okay do you think?

Should I also maybe choose a GOP structure setting (Open/Closed, IBBP, IP, IBP, GOP Size)?

As regards a Bitrate Viewer I'm having trouble locating one for Mac - any suggestions where I might find one please? Aha just found a link in one of your older posts:

http://www.videohelp.com/tools/MacDVDBitrateParanoia

Any thoughts whatsoever would be really appreciated.

Happy New Year!

Peter


Peter Dunphy

2 x 2.66 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon, 8 GB 1066 MHz DDR3, ATI Radeon HD 4870, ATTO ExpressSAS R380, Sonnet D800 Raid 5


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peter dunphy
Re: Maximum DVD Master Quality For Replication
on Jan 3, 2010 at 8:54:14 pm

Not sure if this is useful, but the video also contains lots of fast moving, fast edited sports sequences...

The original format is Canon XHA1 HDV 1080i PAL (recorded at 50i to play at standard PAL 25fps on VCRs)

Peter Dunphy

2 x 2.66 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon, 8 GB 1066 MHz DDR3, ATI Radeon HD 4870, ATTO ExpressSAS R380, Sonnet D800 Raid 5


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peter dunphy
Re: Maximum DVD Master Quality For Replication
on Jan 3, 2010 at 10:15:43 pm

Hi Eric

As an update, I tried CBR 8 but the resultant DVD seemed to play much faster than normal/speeded-up. Regardless, I checked the Video_Ts and the total average bitrate was 7.91 mbps and the regular spikes reached nearly 12 mbps.

Any thoughts would be really appreciated.

Warm regards

Peter

Peter Dunphy

2 x 2.66 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon, 8 GB 1066 MHz DDR3, ATI Radeon HD 4870, ATTO ExpressSAS R380, Sonnet D800 Raid 5


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Nicholas Bierzonski
Re: Maximum DVD Master Quality For Replication
on Jan 6, 2010 at 2:42:36 pm

Hi Peter!

I would contact the replication facility, and ask what they need. When I submit a DVD for replication frequently they want a DDP disc and a Reference DVD.

The DDP version depends on if copy protection will be utilized, and the
reference DVD is a standard DVD that can be played on a standalone DVD player as a Reference for the replicator.

-Nicholas Bierzonski
Senior Editor/DVD Author/Java Boy
http://www.finalfocusvideo.com




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peter dunphy
Re: Maximum DVD Master Quality For Replication
on Jan 8, 2010 at 1:04:27 pm

Hi Nicholas

Thanks so much for replying.

I will contact the replication facility as you suggested.

I'm still baffled by what bitrate setting I should use for my video though :o/



Peter Dunphy

2 x 2.66 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon, 8 GB 1066 MHz DDR3, ATI Radeon HD 4870, ATTO ExpressSAS R380, Sonnet D800 Raid 5


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Stephen de Vere
Re: Maximum DVD Master Quality For Replication
on Feb 15, 2010 at 6:41:52 pm

Peter,

I'm very interested to know if you got the answer to the bitrate settings and more as I'm struggling to produce the same quality DVD for replication in Pal land. I've had a DVD authoring house do it but don't like the encoding quality.

Have you checked the 'Bonsai method' for going HDV to DVD ? I shot in SD so I haven't any experience myself but it looks like the way to go at least in principle. The downconvert scaling is a major way to lose quality.

An authoring house that has Scenarist software may be able to check your authoring for maximum compliancy. I've read that most authoring software is a little less thorough in that.



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Stephen de Vere
Re: Maximum DVD Master Quality For Replication
on Feb 15, 2010 at 6:53:46 pm

I remember there's more to the Bonsai method :

http://www3.telus.net/bonsai/Welcome.html
http://www.produxion.net/2008/04/08/hd-to-sd-conversion-the-holy-grail/


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peter dunphy
Re: Maximum DVD Master Quality For Replication
on Mar 25, 2010 at 12:18:46 am

HI Stephen

Sorry I hadn't been on the forum in a while and just saw your post.

Right now I have the project stored and have yet to approach the replication house. I think I might offer to bring an external MyBook hard drive to them with the full Quicktime version of the finished video.

They can connect it to their own computer hopefully, analyse it, and ideally tell me exactly what bitrate I should deliver the DDP image (on an external harddrive again - maybe just a memory stick) to them in, to best suit their equipment.

"An authoring house that has Scenarist software may be able to check your authoring for maximum compliancy. "

Wow that sounds good definitely worth asking about.

Sorry again for the late post. Have you looked into this further since you last posted? I promise to update this thread with my experience once I get it done.

Peter

Peter Dunphy

2 x 2.66 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon, 8 GB 1066 MHz DDR3, ATI Radeon HD 4870, ATTO ExpressSAS R380, Sonnet D800 Raid 5


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peter dunphy
Re: Maximum DVD Master Quality For Replication
on Mar 25, 2010 at 1:16:15 am

Just came across this excellent piece of advice:

"An .img file would have a 1:1 relationship to a glass master, which would have a 1:1 relationship to a pressed disk. If you're doing the authoring and encoding, it's up to you, not the replication house, to manage bitrate. Don't put any more in than you want on a pressed DVD."

For safety, I will ask the replication house to encode and author this particular big video project I've done.

Peter Dunphy

2 x 2.66 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon, 8 GB 1066 MHz DDR3, ATI Radeon HD 4870, ATTO ExpressSAS R380, Sonnet D800 Raid 5


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peter dunphy
Re: Maximum DVD Master Quality For Replication
on Mar 25, 2010 at 1:36:58 am

For safety, I will ask the replication house to encode and author this particular big video project I've done. I have DVD Studio Pro but just want to play absolutely safe with this video.

How does this sound...

I plan to ask the replication house to encode and author the video, in addition to running off the discs. I will ask for their specs and delivery specs. Then, based on the specs, I will bring my self-contained Quicktime movie (the QT file that can be exported directly from the FCP timeline) on an external hard drive to them, and let them copy it onto their computer.

I will also give them a Quicktime file of a video I want to play in the background of the main menu. I will give them details of what kind of buttons I want and what the buttons should say, and the transition into the movie beginning once the viewer presses play.

...it would be nice to have created the menu and do the encoding and authoring myself, but since the video project I've finished is very important, it's best to have the replication house 'take charge' of it I feel. Also, it's like a security, so if there are any problems with the finished DVDs, I can't be blamed for not encoding properly, because I was not responsible for it.

BTW I've seen DVDs this replication house have produced and they look good quality.

What do you think?

Peter Dunphy

2 x 2.66 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon, 8 GB 1066 MHz DDR3, ATI Radeon HD 4870, ATTO ExpressSAS R380, Sonnet D800 Raid 5


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Stephen de Vere
Re: Maximum DVD Master Quality For Replication
on Mar 25, 2010 at 11:27:48 am

Peter,

I made the mistake of trusting my first chosen replicator to do a good job of the authoring and encoding - wasted nearly 3 months trying to get them to produce a useable result, and have ended up having to start again from scratch with another company while still facing a full invoice for the unuseable job done by the first company. Email if you want to know who they are.

Re. the first replicating house:
The authoring/encoding they always get done by a sub-contractor whose encoding was with something built in to an Avid suite - pretty good quality but the operator would not or could not produce a result that did not have some motion rendering 'judder' and also slight scaling of the whole picture.

The same authorer made many mistakes in the authoring - after the fifth approval disc was still wrong I had to give up. Basically he was an enthusiast/amateur startup getting away with it with mostly clearly un-discerning corporate type clients.

There seem to be a lot of small not very good outfits around. I am beginning to believe they are in fact the majority out there after having a similar disaster experience with getting professional help with the finishing/grading and laying off to digbeta (that time I re-graded myself and have postponed the mastering to tape).

SO don't assume any one firm know all about replicating, authoring and encoding. These are 3 quite different skills. First I would get the replication firm that you believe should be good, to run you off a short test of their mpeg2 encoding. I have found this to be easily the most difficult stage to get a good result from. After my hellish experience with the first firm I got encoding tests done by 3 other companies for free (none refused to do a free test).

The best result was using Cinemacraft 8-pass software-only encode and only costing £250 for 50mins of SD from uncompressed Quicktime on a USB2 drive. Eyeframe.co.uk London (Soho). They have just won awards for authoring Son of Rambow (but check whether they actually did the encoding too). If I had had time to shop around for Cinemacraft SP encoding I might have got even cheaper. This software is so good (they said) that they almost never bother going to the max bitrate (when there's space to do allow) because it doesn't improve the result noticeably. Now I understand more why big hollywood release DVD bit rates are relatively low but still look so good.

The other two tests I had done were both from hardware encoder cards. One was a (now discintinued) Sony Vizaro realtime card and almost as good as the Cinemacraft but cost more than twice the price per minute of the Cinemacraft rate. The other was Matrox Axio LE hardware, assisting encoding via Prem Pro, and decidedly prosumer looking. My own results using Compressor rated about third in the bunch at best, if I could have fixed the bad problems it produced with one or two individual shots.

My authoring house is delivering master DDP with CSS on a DVD-R to the replicator.


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