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Strange DVD compatibility issue - check disk will play on DVD players, but NOT on DVD players (different result for check disks from DVD author and replicator)

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Khashyar Darvich
Strange DVD compatibility issue - check disk will play on DVD players, but NOT on DVD players (different result for check disks from DVD author and replicator)
on Oct 2, 2009 at 9:58:43 pm

Hello Everyone,

Our DVD Author created a DVD dual layer project for us, and we are experiencing this weird computer DVD player compatibility issue:

1) the project was created as a dual layer DVD, on Scenarist

2) Our DVD author's check disk (which he output from Scenarist WITHOUT CSS) plays fine on both computers and stand-alone DVD players.

3) He then output to DLTs (and the only thing that was changed was that the "CSS" checkbox was checked, and the sector size was changed from 2048 to 2052)

4) When we took the DLTs to the replicator, they sent the DLTs to a "Stamper House" who made a glass master.

5) The Replicator received the glass master, and then tried to make a check desk, but they were having issues with their DVD-9 pressing machine, and they brought in an engineer and fixed the issue after 2 days.

6) Here's what is strange: when they made their check disks from the glass master, and we tested the check disks, the check disks play fine on a stand-alone DVD player, but would NOT play on 3 different computers (including one Mac G5).

So, my question is, what could have caused DVD Author's check disk to play fine on computers, but the Replicator's check disk NOT to play on computers?

The Replicator's glass master "Stamper" reports back is a DLT fails for some reason, but they were able to play the DLTs on their system.

Does anyone have any idea what could have changed from the time that DVD Author's check disk played successfully on computers and DVD players, and the time that the Replicator's check disks play successfully on DVD players but NOT on computers?

I appreciate your help and thoughts very much, since I do not want to go through the expense of outputting another DLT, having a new glass master made, and having new replicator check disks made.

Khashyar



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Noah Kadner
Re: Strange DVD compatibility issue - check disk will play on DVD players, but NOT on DVD players (different result for check disks from DVD author and replicator)
on Oct 2, 2009 at 10:05:00 pm

Sounds like the replicator's machine broke to me...

Noah

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Khashyar Darvich
Re: Strange DVD compatibility issue - check disk will play on DVD players, but NOT on DVD players (different result for check disks from DVD author and replicator)
on Oct 2, 2009 at 10:21:57 pm

Thanks for your feedback,

But, is there anything in the replicator's pressing machine that would create a checkdisk where their DVD plays on DVD players, but NOT on computers?

What's strange is the the DVD Author's checkdisk (without CSS) plays fine on everything.

The Replicator is telling me that it must be an issue with how the DLTs were made.

Thanks for your help in trying to figure out what exactly the issue is, and what step along the way caused the issue.

Khashyar



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Khashyar Darvich
Re: Strange DVD compatibility issue - check disk will play on DVD players, but NOT on DVD players (different result for check disks from DVD author and replicator)
on Oct 2, 2009 at 11:42:06 pm

Hello...

I spoke with the owner of the Replicator house (who I have been told is also a DVD author), and he mentioned that while outputting to DLT, there should be a CSS option to 1) allow for playing on a computer (but no copying), and 2) disable playing on a computer (as well as no copying).

My DVD Author is using Scenarist 3.0 or 3.1... Has anyone heard of these CSS options for Scenarist or any other DVD Authoring software?

Also... Would it be possible for the Glass Master Stamper house to have incorrectly changed CSS settings when they made a glass master from the DLTs (the DLTs were flagged for CSS).

Thank you for your help...

My DVD Author and I are stumped.

Khashyar



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Khashyar Darvich
Update: Replicator Check Disks play on some Macs, but not our PC laptops and G5s
on Oct 3, 2009 at 6:53:34 am

I wanted to include an update about the newest pieces to this puzzle...

I took the Replicator's check disks to our DVD Author's office, and they DID play successfully in 4 out of 5 of their Macs, including older Macs.

(So, it looks like CSS is not the issue).

Interestingly enough, the one Mac at the DVD Author's office that would NOT play the Replicator's check disk, is a G5, just like my G5 that would not play the Replicator's check DVDs.

And, again, our DVD Author's check disk (which is exactly the same as the Replicator's check disk, except that it does NOT have CSS and has sector sizes of 2048), DOES play successfully on all of our computers.

Thank you again for your help in trying to solve this mysterious issue.

Khashyar



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Dave Friend
Re: Update: Replicator Check Disks play on some Macs, but not our PC laptops and G5s
on Oct 3, 2009 at 7:45:02 pm

[Khashyar Darvich] "the one Mac at the DVD Author's office that would NOT play the Replicator's check disk, is a G5, just like my G5 that would not play the Replicator's check DVDs."

When you say "won't play" do you mean that the disc won't even mount on the Mac desktop or start the DVD player? Or does it start the player but not play the disc?

Dave


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Dave Friend
Re: Strange DVD compatibility issue - check disk will play on DVD players, but NOT on DVD players (different result for check disks from DVD author and replicator)
on Oct 3, 2009 at 7:43:17 pm

[Khashyar Darvich] "there should be a CSS option to 1) allow for playing on a computer (but no copying), and 2) disable playing on a computer (as well as no copying).

My DVD Author is using Scenarist 3.0 or 3.1... Has anyone heard of these CSS options for Scenarist or any other DVD Authoring software?"


We have both 3.0 and 3.1 and I don't believe there is any such setting.
If there is it is well hidden. I've never seen it and I just looked again to be sure.

Dave


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Khashyar Darvich
Re: Strange DVD compatibility issue - check disk will play on DVD players, but NOT on computers (different result for check disks from DVD author and replicator)
on Oct 4, 2009 at 9:20:28 pm

Hi David,

Thank you for your feedback and thoughts in helping us try to figure out what is causing this issue.

To answer your questions:

1) On my G5, when I insert the Replicator's DVD check desk, I receive a "-36" error from the G5 DVD player(which says that the disk may be scratched or dirty), so I assume that it does mount. On my 2 HP PC Laptops, the title of the Replicator's check disk DOES appear after I insert the disks.

2) Thank you for answering the questions about the options for Scenarist. My DVD Author said that he didn't recall any additional settings like that either. (It was the owner of the Replication company that mentioned that there were this in-depth settings for CSS, like "play on DVD player, but not on computer," etc...

What I am asking the Replicator to do now, is to repress new check disks from the glass master, so that we can eliminate whether the issue was in the last pressing of the replicator check disks.

I am not sure whether there could have been an error in the creation of the glass master, but I don't feel like spending $200 just to check that theory out.

My last step would be to ask our DVD Author to output NEW DLTs, without CSS, and then try to create the DVD glass master and new check disks with the new CSS-less DLT tapes.

What's mysterious is that our DVD Author's check disk DOES play on computers, while the Replicator's check disks do not (granted, the Replicator created the glass master and check disks from the DLT tapes that were outputted with CSS, and the DVD author created his check disk without the CSS setting - and 2054 sector size - added).

I appreciate any other thoughts in helping us try to resolve this puzzling issue.

Khashyar







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Khashyar Darvich
Re: Strange DVD compatibility issue - check disk will play on DVD players, but NOT on computers (different result for check disks from DVD author and replicator)
on Oct 4, 2009 at 10:27:00 pm

Hi Dave,

I just tried to play one of the check disks given to me by the Replicator on my Mac G5, and the DVD DOES mount on the desktop, and the Mac's DVD player tries to play the disk, but like the other check disks from the Replicator, I receive a "-33" error, and an error message saying that the disk may b scratched or dirty, even though it is a new DVD check disk.

Thank you for any more thoughts you might have to help us resolve the issue...

Khashyar





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Dave Friend
Re: Strange DVD compatibility issue - check disk will play on DVD players, but NOT on computers (different result for check disks from DVD author and replicator)
on Oct 5, 2009 at 3:27:42 am

Khashyar,

I wanted to know if the Mac mounted the disc because I have read of a situation (very rare and not related to Scenarist) where disc permissions get interpreted by OSx such that the disc is not allowed to mount. That's not your problem.

I will ask the guy who runs our glass mastering laser if he has any ideas what could be going on.

At the start of this thread you said, "The Replicator's glass master "Stamper" reports back is a DLT fails for some reason, but they were able to play the DLTs on their system." This is troubling. If they had trouble reading the DLT then I would be nervous that the data on the disc is corrupt. Sometimes the DVD player "dirty disc' code you are seeing is due to corrupt data.

[Khashyar Darvich] "My last step would be to ask our DVD Author to output NEW DLTs"
With Scenarist it is possible to output what Sonic calls a PlantDirect image. This "image" is the set of files that get written to a DLT saved to a hard drive. Check with your replicator but most likely they can use these files by reading them from a DVD-R. This is much faster and cheaper than writing DLT tapes.

Dave



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Khashyar Darvich
Re: Strange DVD compatibility issue - check disk will play on DVD players, but NOT on computers (different result for check disks from DVD author and replicator)
on Oct 5, 2009 at 5:49:10 pm

Hi Dave,

Thank you again for contributing your thoughts in trying to find the solution to this issue.

And thank you very much for asking the opinion of the person who creates your glass masters.

In the sentence that you mentioned from my first post, I miswrote "is." That word should be "if." If there was a problem with the DLTs, then the Stamper would have reported a DLT tape fail, but our DLTs passed and did not fail, and they were successfully able to create a glass master.

I am wondering that since the DLTs did pass, and a glass master was able to be successfully created, could there still be correuption on the DLTs?

I am not sure if the glass master stamper can accept a hard drive "direct" output, but I will ask them.

Thanks again,

Khashyar



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Dave Friend
Re: Strange DVD compatibility issue - check disk will play on DVD players, but NOT on computers (different result for check disks from DVD author and replicator)
on Oct 7, 2009 at 10:28:52 pm

[Khashyar Darvich] "I am wondering that since the DLTs did pass, and a glass master was able to be successfully created, could there still be correuption on the DLTs?"

Yes, it is possible. Not likely, but possible.

I talked with our mastering guy and he offered to run your check disc through our checking system to see if anything jumps out as wrong. I will send you an email via the contact us link on your website to give you my contact info.

Dave


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Khashyar Darvich
Re: Strange DVD compatibility issue - check disk will play on DVD players, but NOT on Computers (different result for check disks from DVD author and replicator)
on Oct 4, 2009 at 10:49:12 pm

Hello Everyone,

My DVD author posted this same issue in another forum, and a DVD author thought that the issue might be that the Replicator did not recalibrate their Replication press after they had to repair the DVD-9 physical molding a few days ago.

Although I spoke with one of the Reps with the Replicator, and she told me that they created another set of DVD-9 check disks for another project the same time that they created ours, and I am told that the other project's check disks were fine. (But, I am not sure if the second project was tested on a computer).

Could this be an issue of recalibrating the Replicator press, even though our check disks do work on stand-alone DVD players, just not on computers?

Would a mis-calibration of the replication press result in a DVD playable on DVD players and not computers?

Thank you again for your thoughts,

Khashya



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eric pautsch
Re: Strange DVD compatibility issue - check disk will play on DVD players, but NOT on Computers (different result for check disks from DVD author and replicator)
on Oct 5, 2009 at 12:09:21 am

These problems are rare...thank God

http://www.dvdverification.com/public/98.cfm

I'd go here at this point



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Khashyar Darvich
Re: Strange DVD compatibility issue - check disk will play on DVD players, but NOT on Computers (different result for check disks from DVD author and replicator)
on Oct 5, 2009 at 2:27:49 am

Thanks for your feedback and advice, Eric.

Yes, thank God this is a rare issue (thank God for all of us, except for me in this instance :). ).

Thanks for referring me to that website. I'll look at it once I get back to my computer.

Khashyar


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Dave Friend
Re: Strange DVD compatibility issue - check disk will play on DVD players, but NOT on Computers (different result for check disks from DVD author and replicator)
on Oct 5, 2009 at 3:33:48 am

[Khashyar Darvich] "Could this be an issue of recalibrating the Replicator press, even though our check disks do work on stand-alone DVD players, just not on computers?"

Not likely. I would expect a replicated disc that not quite up to spec to have problems on a wide spectrum of players - both computer and stand-alone.

You have checked the sample disc on several stand-alone players? Run it through as many machines as you can find just to be sure.

Dave


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Khashyar Darvich
Re: Strange DVD compatibility issue - check disk will play on DVD players, but NOT on Computers (different result for check disks from DVD author and replicator)
on Oct 5, 2009 at 5:16:18 am

Hi Dave,

Thanks for your response.

The Replicator's check disks played on 26 different standard DVD players at their test facility, and 4 other stand-alone DVD players that we have.

So, they are playing solidly on stand-alone DVD players, but only on about half of the computers that we tried.

And, again, the DVD Author's check disk (which should be the same as the Replicators, except without CSS), does play on our computers.

Khashyar



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Dave Friend
Re: Strange DVD compatibility issue - check disk will play on DVD players, but NOT on Computers (different result for check disks from DVD author and replicator)
on Oct 9, 2009 at 2:38:04 pm

[Khashyar Darvich] "So, they are playing solidly on stand-alone DVD players, but only on about half of the computers that we tried."

All the same O/S make and release version? Maybe you found a bug in that version of that O/S.

Stand-alone players tend to be a bit more tolerant as they have built-in error correction. Drives in computers are only emulating a stand-alone and rely on software for much of what is "in the chips" of set-top players.

As the data can be figured out by one type of player and not another would seem to indicate a physical problem with the disc IMO. If it were strictly a "bad input" issue (i.e. corrupt DLT, out-of-spec build, bad authoring) then wouldn't all players behave the same?

It's also important to bear in mind that the replicator will have to mount the stamper (The stamper is made from the "glass master") in the press again. So if the problem is a physical one due to the molding process it might not manifest again on the next replication run. Then again, it might get worse.

The replicator should be able to tell you if the data on the disc is exactly the same data that was used by the mastering laser. Perhaps they don't do that on "check" runs? They should on a "real" run.

You have no reason to believe that it is an authoring issue. Frankly, I believe the replicator needs to either make another run or pony-up for third party verification.

If the disc passes a physical QC review I would offer to provide the DDP data on DVD-R. As I explained earlier, this is done by using the PlantDirect feature of Scenarist. The DDP file-set for each layer (as created by Scenarist, there are four files in the set) are burned to individual DVD-R discs. If your replicator can't handle that then go elsewhere for the work.

Really it comes down to the fact that the replication check discs are not satisfactory. My offer to run the check disc through our QC suite (at no charge) stands.

Dave


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