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DVD Replication nightmare.

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alan92rttt
DVD Replication nightmare.
on Aug 29, 2006 at 7:19:30 pm

I am having an issue with my a DVD I just had replicated. I hope the people on this forum can help.

This DVD was created with:
EditStudio 5 for video editing
DVD Lab Pro for authoring
Plextor dual layer burner
Verbatim DVD +R DL media

The burnt copy plays fine is set top players.

I sent it off to replication and the replicated copied have an error. The error occurs once in the entire disc in the same spot on all disc's.

Depending on the player the visual result is different.

Some players just show some odd pixels or a green block or two. Some players have green and purple blocks covering the entire screen and one just skips the section like a bad edit.


The replication company is trying to blame this on the Authoring software.

here is the email I received from them
My bosses and I (who I've copied on this email) have gotten together and are responding to the DVD problem. We've been doing research and came up with 3 items that lead us to this being an authoring problem. The 3 items include: speaking with an authoring person, having encountered this problem in the past, and researching your authoring program.



First, I've spoke with an authoring guy who has been authoring DVD's for the past 7 years. His first impression was that at the point where some of the players are experiencing the problem there could be a bit rate spike. When there is a spike in the bit rate, problems occur such as skipping, blocks, and/or vertical lines. It's almost like when a computer is trying to process too many things at once, it skips, bleeps, etc..



Second, we have been in business for over 10 years now. This is the second time we've encountered this type of problem. The first time we encountered this problem was almost a year ago. My client used an inexpensive authoring program not intended for replication. The problems we are starting to incur are people buying inexpensive, non-professional authoring software.



Third, I spoke to the professional authoring person about DVDlab pro. He explained to me that DVDlab pro is a starter authoring program not intended for professional use. While doing more research, we found DVDlab's web site and went to the faq page.



http://www.mediachance.com/dvdlab/dvdlabfaq.html



The following were copied and pasted from your authoring programs web site.



It is strongly recommended that professionals who are getting paid for their commercial work use a commercial grade software. There are few industry standards for making DVD's such as Sonic Scenarist or Apple DVD Studio Pro. While nobody will stop you from using our low-cost solutions for commercial projects, it is not advisable. Once you invest a lot of money and time into making your commercial project, it doesn't make sense to suddenly go "low-cost" on the last, but equally important step such as authoring DVD.



A very honest answer is that we can't guarantee 100% playability unless we do test all players ever build on all kinds of files, which is not possible. At this moment our own estimation would be a 98% players compatibility (PRO version), where we put a "safe" margin of 2% of players that may have problem playing the authored DVD's for whatever reason. Please note, it is an estimation, not guarantee. We are trying to improve this ratio constantly. If you find a player that has an obvious problem playing the authored disk (excluding disk related defects and problems) please

let us know the type and model.



The fact that your authoring program is stating that it's not intended for commercial use and that they cannot guarantee playability is just another item that reflects that it's an authoring problem, not a replication problem. Also, the fact that there were so many problems when trying to burn(NOTE the issues they are referring to are from a bad Dual Layer burner) the DVD-9 tells us the person doing the authoring is not a professional. Also, remember that Beyond Purl was a DVD-5 and not a DVD-9. From speaking to the professionals and doing web searches, it's a whole different ballgame.


I have run a bitrate scan on the mpg file for this segment of the video the max before the error is 6200~ at the point of the error it is about 5600~.

I need to convince the replication company that this is a error either in the glass master or in the replicated copy.

Any suggestions?

Am I missing something and could this be on our end somehow?

Thanks in advance

Alan


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eric
Re: DVD Replication nightmare.
by
on Aug 29, 2006 at 9:01:21 pm

Did you use AC3 audio? Did you give them a second build?

If you still having trouples I'd go here:

http://www.dvdverification.com/




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eric
Re: DVD Replication nightmare.
by
on Aug 29, 2006 at 9:03:15 pm

Another thing...How did you deliver this to replication?


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alan92rttt
Re: DVD Replication nightmare.
on Aug 29, 2006 at 9:24:46 pm

Yes, the audio was AC3 format.

The data was sent on a burnt DVD +R DL. We have this disc back in our posession and it plays fine on DVD's that produce errors with the replicated disc.


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eric
Re: DVD Replication nightmare.
by
on Aug 29, 2006 at 10:11:09 pm

Try sending the disc on DLT instead...never submit a DL disc for a DVD-9 project. Where are you located?


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alan92rttt
Re: DVD Replication nightmare.
on Aug 29, 2006 at 10:34:43 pm

I do not have the option of making a DLT.

Michigan.


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eric
Re: DVD Replication nightmare.
by
on Aug 29, 2006 at 11:01:58 pm

I'd say these would be your only options:

Give them another build - the first one could have errors
Deliver on DLT
Redo the project in Encore or DVDSP
Call Trai - see link above


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Bill Stephan
Re: DVD Replication nightmare.
on Aug 29, 2006 at 11:59:05 pm

I absolutely would not even consider EVER mastering a DVD-9 project on a DVD+/-R DL. That said, when the replicator's Eclipse recorder is importing your source data, if your disc throws an error, the replicator should not go forward creating the glass master. Mastering from DVD-R sometimes causes errors to creep into the replicated discs, and the replicator needs to be extra careful to watch out for this.

The fact that the replicator is trying to blame the authoring software is an indication of a cover-up, and they may be trying to hide their own defective manufacturing.

Try copying the DVD to the hard drive on a PC. If the copy fails, that is a pretty good indication that the DVD contain PO (parity outer) errors. That usually results from bad molding or a damaged glass master. You might want to have the replicated DVDs analyzed to determine what kind of errors are present. Also the replicator's reports from the Eclipse recorder may indicate where the problem is.

Did you get a check disc before the job was run? You shouldn't approve starting a replication run until you obtain a check disc and check it thoroughly. You would have seen this problem on the check disc.

Next time use a DLT to master a DVD-9 project. That is a bulletproof method of getting the data to the replicator.

Bill Stephan
Senior Editor/DVD Author
USA Studios
New York City


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alan92rttt
Re: DVD Replication nightmare.
on Aug 30, 2006 at 8:47:13 pm

Copying the data to the HD did not tell me anything. The two drives in my computer are able to read the disc without error. The issue shown up on set top players. (my wife just told me that the laptop has issues so I'll try that tonight)

The replication company has come back with an offer. They have offered to have one of the other "plants" that they work with test the master vs a replicated disc using their "datarius system". They claim that this plant will give an unbiased test because they compete with the plant that created the discs.

Does this seem fair?


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eric
Re: DVD Replication nightmare.
by
on Aug 30, 2006 at 11:21:28 pm

Hi Alan

What if the two are the same? Do you have to pay for another replication? Look into other options.


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Trai Forrester
Re: DVD Replication nightmare.
on Aug 31, 2006 at 12:43:13 am

Hi Alan,

You're layer break isn't occuring on properly flagged cell, or on a cell, even (known as the split-cell error; players don't like it, for sure). Now, it's a question of whether your replicator honored your formatting. But it's most likely your formatter didn't honor your intentions, or you didn't have any, i.e., account for the layer break in your project.

The replicators "independent" test won't check for what the problem is, so you're about to get another "we're not at fault" statement. And Bill is absolutely correct on this as Eclipse and DCA Image Analysis software do not support dealing with Images on DVD+R DL discs; so mastering with it is a crap shoot (for other more detailed reasons, as well).

I'd love to get involved in this one, but will stay in my corner until I'm officially invited.

Sorry you're having issues at the plant,

Trai Forrester
TFDVD Research Labs
http://www.dvdverification.com
800-231-2297


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alan92rttt
Re: DVD Replication nightmare.
on Aug 31, 2006 at 2:21:41 am

Trai, Bill, and everyone else thank you for your assistance and you are all invited to help in any way you can.

Trai, This is not the layer break. Their is about 1 hour of video between the error and the layer break. I do not believe that is this caused by an improper setting of the layer break. When playing the DVD on a regular player, the layer break does happen properly at the point were it was set.


Alan



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Trai Forrester
Re: DVD Replication nightmare.
on Aug 31, 2006 at 4:20:50 am

Hi Alan,

Well, the last job brought to me submitted on DVD+R DL had this issue! (good thing I don't charge unless I find the answer and solve the situation, eh? :-)

What you describe below is definitely a manufacturer error; try copying the disc to HD on another Windows machine, if you still get that copy error at the same location, you've got em (be sure to have snagit ready to grab a screenshot of the copy error messages).

If you get the same error on another Windows machine's drive and you'd like some heavy artillery, send me one of the discs, and I'll run Eclipse ImageAnalysis on it which will find the errors and document it nicely. I'll send you the report in PDF form (that'll get em for sure). No charge (but you might want to consider resubmission on DLT when the replicator agrees to redo the run. I'll make you a deal there :-).

Take care,

Trai Forrester
TFDVD Research Labs
http://www.DVDVerification.com


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alan92rttt
Re: DVD Replication nightmare.
on Aug 31, 2006 at 1:15:16 pm

I have the replicated DVD with me to see how the computers at work behave. I did capture a screen shot of the error on the laptop.

Please sent me an email about the prices for the verification and DLT to a92rttt@hotmail.com.

Thanks in Advance.

Alan


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Trai Forrester
Re: DVD Replication nightmare.
on Sep 1, 2006 at 11:06:26 am

Good to talk with you Alan,

After getting off the phone with you, I immediately added quite a bit to the first page of the "Why Verify the DVD?"
article (not quite putting what I was orginally thinking, though. :-)

Everyone, please wish us luck. We're possibly going to need some with this replication broker!

Take care,

Trai Forrester
TFDVD Research Labs



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alan92rttt
Re: DVD Replication nightmare.
on Aug 31, 2006 at 3:03:00 am

As I mentioned I tried the DVD in the laptop drive and the player locks at the "spot"

I then tried to copy the vob's to the computers harddrive and I got a read error 1/2 way thru the 3rd vob.

In my opinion this verifies what I have been thinking. My belief has been that the disc has a marginal spot and that better players with faster drivers were able to try it enough times to get a good read.

If I'm wrong tell me and let me know how to proced.


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Anoni Moose
Re: DVD Replication nightmare.
on Aug 31, 2006 at 7:11:16 am

I know nothing about what is being discussed here (reading and learning!), but I use a plextor DVD burner so I know they come with software (PlexTools) that analyzes all sorts of DVD parameters including various error rates that include the PI/PO rates that were mentioned. Might be interesting to run it on the disc(s). Don't know how useful, but seems like it could be interesting.



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tsketteler
Re: DVD Replication nightmare.
on Sep 6, 2006 at 10:07:25 pm

I run the mastering dept at a CD/DVD replication plant and if you'd like you can send me one of the discs and I'll let you know what's wrong with it - no charge.

Scott Ketteler
ADS
2155 Niagara Lane North
Plymouth, MN 55447-4654



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Trai Forrester
Re: DVD Replication nightmare.
on Sep 7, 2006 at 10:57:50 am

Hi Scott,

We've got a soft read at the spot that looks like is causing problems (these results are consistent across several different replicas); here's Layer 0:



I'm able to get a byte for byte compare of the Master to the replicas, but only if I'm using my Eclipse approved "reference" drive (Plextor PX-716A). A couple of other DVD writers I have drops some sectors (at that spot, about 3 gigs in) during the transfer to hard drive, and the compare between master and replica fail. Problem is, the replicator also gets a byte for byte successful compare, and their limited playback tests have not shown the playback glitch, so they're reluctant to redo the run (they've offered a reduced rate redo).

I tried to look you up to give you a call (you mastering guys are always deep in the 'DVD cave', it seems! :-), and am sending you two of the replicas by mail (you have a CATS system, right?).

I've learned a lot on this one (no more declarative statements from me till I see the materials, no matter how much fun it is to guess!), and would certainly appreciate a better understanding of how to navigate a case like this (the replication broker is acting measured and reasonable). If this were a check disc, I would have politely refused it, requesting new glass masters until I got steady reads across the platter and could consistently transfer all the data off.

If you have any questions please let me know,

Trai Forrester
TFDVD Research Labs
Trai AT Comcast.net
800-213-2297



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tsketteler
Re: DVD Replication nightmare.
on Sep 7, 2006 at 5:04:16 pm

I notice there is a red flag on the Eclipse analysis tab... If it's a tracking servo error or unreadable sectors then you've probably got POF errors. When the Eclipse software has trouble reading a disc it keeps dropping the speed down until it can recover the read or can't and then will report some type of read error.

The graph from the screen shot shows that the disc has a defect at that specific radius on the discs - either a dent causing a spike in radial noise and/or there might have been a scratch, spot, pinhole, etc on the stamper or mirror block causeing a spike in digital errors (PIE, POF, PIF).

From what I've seen & read here your problem is a manufacturing/replication defect. Visually check the disc around this location, looks to be around radius 35 - 40mm for a defect. When I get the discs I'll run them on our CATS system and see exactly what's up.

If you'd like you can call me at 763.449.5577. Also, we have a website http://www.ads-cd.com but it seems to be down today - they've been upgrading our T1 lines...

Best Regards, -Scott


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Trai Forrester
Re: DVD Replication nightmare.
on Sep 7, 2006 at 7:34:38 pm

Thanks Scott,

Yes, the disc has other logical issues, but no unreadable sector/SCSI errors or warnings; which is what makes this one a bit tricky. I believe your analysis of imperfection at that location is correct, and I've got to be able to prove it to a replication broker (not as knowledgeable and technical as you are), which is hard to do if both their and my (on a 'reference drive') comparison tests have shown all the data on the Master is on the replica.

The discs are in the mail, and look forward to your findings.

Thanks again,

Trai


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tsketteler
Re: DVD Replication nightmare.
on Sep 11, 2006 at 10:33:35 pm

Got the discs today and ran on the CATS tester. They show a POF at the location indicated by the drop in your Eclipse performance analysis...

POF = Parity Outer Fails - The decoder was unable to correct the data using the outer parity codes in the first pass. The wording "first pass" is important because the decoder may be designed to do several passes of error correction. There is a possiblity that the error may be corrected in following passes. This explains why your problem doesn't show up on every drive.

POF is measured over 1 ECC block and the highest possible value for this parameter is 1, which indicates a probable uncorrectable error.

POF should never be present on a DVD!


There are a few other parameters out also... Bottem Jitter, Radial Run Out, and DPD amplitude (related to the RRO) These aren't real bad and shouldn't be causing any problems - the problem you've had with these discs is caused by the POF.

I just faxed a copy of the test summary.

Best Regards, -Scott


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stoofercat
Re: DVD Replication nightmare.
on Dec 7, 2006 at 3:08:40 pm

I have a similar problem to the above, I had someone author a dvd for me, the dvd was dvd9 so he exported it to (2) DLT and then burnt me a couple of copies of the film on dvd9r, the DLT's were then sent to the replicator and the burnt discs sent to me, the burnt discs worked fine but when I took delivery of the manufactured discs they did not work properly, firstly one of the buttons on the main menu did not work, secondly at 1 hour 24 minutes into the film it goes pixilated and when it clears the film is about 2 minutes foward from where it should be (the counter on the player does not skip).
I have been in discusion with the manufacturers and they were saying it was an authoring problem but I argued because the burnt discs work fine! They are currently running more tests but I feel they won't want to admit to it being their fault, I came across this thread and tried copying the files from one of the manufactured discs to the HD on computer but get an error message error copying file..... file system error (-2147351799)maybe this is some sort of protection on the discs? the authorer says he didnt put any encryption on the discs!


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