FORUMS: list search recent posts

Mad Max Fury Road Frame Rate Manipulation

COW Forums : Cinematography

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Jon Shank
Mad Max Fury Road Frame Rate Manipulation
on Aug 10, 2016 at 2:09:52 am

So the film often has a sped up choppy look which is said to have been done using dropped frames.

"Something like 50 or 60 percent of the film is not running at 24 frames a second, which is the traditional frame rate," said Seale. "It'll be running below 24 frames because George, if he couldn't understand what was happening in the shot, he slowed it down until you could. Or if it was too well understood, he'd shorten it or he'd speed it up back towards 24. His manipulation of every shot in that movie is intense."

So my question is this.

What frame rate did he likely SHOOT in to be able to both slow down and speed up?

Is this something I could do with a dslr? Say by shooting in 24 and then interpreting/conforming it to 26+ to make it sped up/choppy and down to 21-23 to make it slower?


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Mad Max Fury Road Frame Rate Manipulation
on Aug 11, 2016 at 1:25:08 pm

[Jon Shank] "What frame rate did he likely SHOOT in to be able to both slow down and speed up?"

You can speed up from 24fps, you just can't slow down as easily (not without using post interpolation work, such as the Twixtor plugin). I would assume mostly 48fps, perhaps in certain cases (I cannot remember the movie well enough to remember how slow the slow motion goes) as high as 120fps (the limit of the Alexa XT).

[Jon Shank] "Is this something I could do with a dslr? Say by shooting in 24 and then interpreting/conforming it to 26+ to make it sped up/choppy and down to 21-23 to make it slower?"

Yes for the latter and not really for the former. To get the quality of slow motion like you saw in Fury Road you would need to shoot at a bone fide higher frame rate. And that depends on what DSLR you're shooting with. The A7S Mark II, for instance, will do 1080 at 120fps. The Panasonic GH4 will actually do 48fps in VFR mode (which means no sound capture on camera). The Canon EOS 7D Mark II will allow 1080 at 60fps, while the EOS 60D would only allow you 60p in 720.


Return to posts index

Jon Shank
Re: Mad Max Fury Road Frame Rate Manipulation
on Aug 11, 2016 at 6:06:26 pm

So I if I did shoot at 59.98 fps and put it in a 23.976 timeline...

I would have to interpret it even higher than 59.98 to get the choppy motion?

(Slow motion is simple I know, just confirming to 23.976).

Also, what shutter speed would be good at 60fps for cinematic motion blur? 180 degree?


Return to posts index


Gary Huff
Re: Mad Max Fury Road Frame Rate Manipulation
on Aug 13, 2016 at 5:10:54 am

[Jon Shank] "I would have to interpret it even higher than 59.98 to get the choppy motion? "

You only interpret for slow-motion. To get choppy motion, you just speed up the clip.

[Jon Shank] "Also, what shutter speed would be good at 60fps for cinematic motion blur? 180 degree?"

The two are mutually exclusive. By "cinematic motion blur" aka, the typical motion blur you see in a projected film, that is 1/48, which you cannot do at 60 fps. You will need to shoot at 1/120 (which is what a 180 degree shutter will give you), so when you play back normal speed, the blur will be less than the "cinematic motion blur" you typically see. There is no way around this.


Return to posts index

Jon Shank
Re: Mad Max Fury Road Frame Rate Manipulation
on Aug 13, 2016 at 9:03:36 am

I've conformed to a higher frame rate on footage I shot at 24 and it gives me nice choppy motion. And they say they didn't speed it up they manipulated frame rate in the quote "most of the film isn't played back at 24fps." But if they shot at a higher frame rate and just dropped frames to 24 would interpreting to a higher (say you shot at 60, conformed to 65, then dropped into a 24 timeline) have the same effect as doing the 24 conformed to 30)?

Also I thought the 180 degree shutter angle rule applied at every frame rate to get the most "filmic" motion blur.

Or is a 360 degree shutter more filmic at 60p?


Return to posts index

Jon Shank
Re: Mad Max Fury Road Frame Rate Manipulation
on Aug 13, 2016 at 9:14:11 am

Maybe I'm just not considering Hollywood budget and planning. I shoot a lot with only one camera and with not much time so I tend to shoot everything at a consistent frame rate but they could have shot normal or fast sequences at 24 and slow mo scenes at a higher frame rate BUT it does say that he decided in post if he wanted to slow or speed the action. So it seems like the frame rate would have had to been shot consistently.


Return to posts index


Jon Shank
Re: Mad Max Fury Road Frame Rate Manipulation
on Aug 13, 2016 at 10:28:41 am

Alright sorry for posting 3 in a row I'm on mobile and don't see an edit post button. I tried to clean up my question here:

So, it says in the quote from my first post that he decided in post-production to either slow or speed the frame rate.

What frame rate do you think they shot in to be able to have the option to do both?

I've like scoured the Internet and can't find any consistent opinions on this.

I've shot some test footage at 24fps and interpreted it to like 26-33 and get the nice sped up choppy effect. But if I decided I wanted to instead slow the action and still export it at 24 it wouldn't be smooth slow motion cause the clip only had 24 frames per second to work with.

So here is where I'm confused. If I wanted the option to slow down OR speed up could I just shoot the entire thing in 60 or higher?

1. Would I be able to interpret it at like 70fps to get the choppy motion in a 24p sequence or would it not look the same as native 24?
2. Would the 60 fps footage I didn't alter the speed on look bad because of premiere frame dropping to get it to 24fps?


Return to posts index

Richard Herd
Re: Mad Max Fury Road Frame Rate Manipulation
on Aug 16, 2016 at 9:35:34 pm
Last Edited By Richard Herd on Aug 16, 2016 at 9:39:15 pm

There are few details to wade through.

We calculate motion shutter speed as Frame Rate * Shutter Angle.

The shutter angle is what we do not have, well not really, on digital cameras.

Watch this video:





The "choppy look" comes from the shutter angle. So for slowmo choppiness you want 60fps * (90/360 shutter angle) = 1/240. This technique is used quite a bit especially when you want to capture pieces of dust particle from an explosion, like in Saving Private Ryan and The Hurt Locker -- among dozens and dozens of other films.

Additionally, its worth mentioning, that you can add the motion blur in post, but you cannot take it away.

And also the feeling this creates is of a heightened reality: things are moving slowly and we are able to see each frame, each spec of dirt passing by. If your story does that, then it's a good time to use the technique. OTOH, the opposite happens to: if the reality is confused, you may want to use an obtuse shutter angle, such as 270-degrees, or 24fps * 270/360 = 1/32 shutter speed. Together with some lens whacking, you will create a drugged-out or punch drunk experience.


Return to posts index

Jon Shank
Re: Mad Max Fury Road Frame Rate Manipulation
on Aug 17, 2016 at 2:22:32 am

Thank you all a ton!

Richard you made that so easy to understand thank you very much man


Return to posts index


Todd Terry
Re: Mad Max Fury Road Frame Rate Manipulation
on Aug 17, 2016 at 4:19:04 am

I'm saving that video myself... I'd hesitate to count the number of times through the years I've tried to explain to someone how shutter speed is different than frame rate, what the emulation of a 180° shutter is, and all that jazz. I usually just get blank looks. I agree it is not the world's most obvious thing to understand, but if you think a bit about it it's not that hard.

And Jon, if you want to use the "narrow shutter" look to make an action scene look more "actiony," just be judicious about it. In the right hands, it can be very effective (Saving Private Ryan, as mentioned). Overdone though, it's a very bad thing. I think I first noticed the wave of offenses starting in 2000 with the movie Gladiator, where (in my opinion) overuse of narrow shutters rendered the movie almost unwatchable. Of course, many many other movies have followed suit.

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com



Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Mad Max Fury Road Frame Rate Manipulation
on Aug 17, 2016 at 3:31:33 pm

[Todd Terry] "Overdone though, it's a very bad thing. "

To be more specific, I saw a film in a theater that used a high shutter rate to compensate for lack of ND filters (so in the area of 1/1000 or higher depending on the amount of sunlight).

It gave me a splitting headache.


Return to posts index


<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]