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Best bargain for 4K camera?

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Matteo Proromo
Best bargain for 4K camera?
on Jul 15, 2016 at 10:42:34 pm

Hi all! I'm a video producer and what you could describe as "entrepreneur": I organize night events, especially bars/discos commercial events.
So the two types of videos I make (or better yet, that I have people make) are pretty different: the most common ones are studio ones, a very typical advertising/professional photographer type of images, with good illumination, clean audio and a mostly static camera; the other ones are low-light, noisy videos with an always-moving camera and lots of people.
Now, I would like to "make a step forward" toward a 4K definition and a 60fps frame rate (the two features should come united in the "device of my dream", that is a camera allowing me to shoot in 4K at 60fps). If I need to make sacrifices to stay in my budget, 4K is a must, while I could be happy with 50fps (but nothing less). Audio is the least important thing for me and my job, so I could definitely go with a camera with great video quality and crappy audio (I can always buy a microphone separately).
Another issue is the events part: the idea of a big, heavy, long, "proper" video camera scares me, as it wouldn't probably last much in some of the events I work at. That's why I was considering a compact DSLR, but trouble is I'm not rich: my budget is 6-7000 dollars...tops. That is: EVERYTHING included. Body, lens, memory cards.
Do I have hope? :)

Matteo


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Gary Huff
Re: Best bargain for 4K camera?
on Jul 17, 2016 at 2:09:19 am
Last Edited By Gary Huff on Jul 17, 2016 at 2:12:21 am

[Matteo Proromo] "That's why I was considering a compact DSLR, but trouble is I'm not rich: my budget is 6-7000 dollars...tops. That is: EVERYTHING included. Body, lens, memory cards. Do I have hope? :)"

No, you do not. There are no compact DSLR bodies that shoot 4K 60p and none that will for the foreseeable future. The cheapest camera that you can purchase that will do 4Kp50/60 will be the Usra Mini 4K for $3000, then the Ursa Mini 4.6K for $5,000. The Ursa line suffers from quality assurance issues and will fall apart very quickly shooting at ISO speeds over 800. You may also have an assortment of other image issues.

The DSLR style (but not compact as it essentially has a grip built in), is the Canon 1DX Mark II at $6000 that shoots MotionJPEG (comparable to ProRes). It will handle low-light much better than the Ursas, but will have no Log video modes, and limited on-screen tools (such as peaking and a waveform).

The next level up that will be a camera with 4Kp50/60 that is more reliable and better quality in low-light environments will be the Sony PMW-FS7 at $8000.

Any of these cameras will require expensive media, CFast for the Ursas/1DX Mark II and XQD cards for the Sony. You'll be looking at 176GB per hour of ProRes footage on the Ursas and 270GB per hour on the Sony. CFast media is $370 per 128GB and XQD is $170 per 128GB.


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Alan Lloyd
Re: Best bargain for 4K camera?
on Jul 18, 2016 at 5:03:21 pm

A Sony PXW-X70, while not amazing in low(er) light, will give you everything else you want. And it's small, portable, and not that obtrusive.

Given your stated budget, you could get two X70s with their 4K upgrades and a handful of XAVC cards.

It's OK up to 9 db or a bit higher under most circumstances.


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Matteo Proromo
Re: Best bargain for 4K camera?
on Jul 18, 2016 at 7:02:15 pm

On B&H Photo Video, it says as follows: "The 4K Upgrade License Key for Sony PXW-X70 provides support for QFHD shooting at 30p/25p/24p."
Is it wrong?


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Alan Lloyd
Re: Best bargain for 4K camera?
on Jul 18, 2016 at 8:01:45 pm

Apparently not. I hadn't looked, as I have not done the 4K upgrade. (No one's asking for it to this point.) Do rather like my X70, though. And it's got a sweet 1080 HD 60fps/50 megabit record rate I use for nice slo-mo stuff.

If 60 fps is critical you would best look elsewhere then. What do you use the 60 fps frame rate for?


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Gary Huff
Re: Best bargain for 4K camera?
on Jul 18, 2016 at 9:16:30 pm

[Alan Lloyd] "Apparently not. I hadn't looked, as I have not done the 4K upgrade. (No one's asking for it to this point.)"

And yet you decided to chime in on a camera you don't even have the 4K functionality activated on yet? You have no idea of its quality and decided to recommend it anyways.

Odd.


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Eric Strand
Re: Best bargain for 4K camera?
on Jul 19, 2016 at 3:09:36 pm

[Matteo Proromo] " the other ones are low-light, noisy videos with an always-moving camera and lots of people."

Well the king of low light nowadays is the Sony A7SII. You get a small camera capable of 4K internal recording in low light. You could either buy used lenses or rent some until you figure out which ones you like. It doesn't give you 4K 60fps, but it does do 1080 120fps or 60fps.

@ericstrand11


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Gary Huff
Re: Best bargain for 4K camera?
on Jul 21, 2016 at 12:46:40 am

[Eric Strand] "It doesn't give you 4K 60fps, but it does do 1080 120fps or 60fps."

Great, so let's recommend him a camera that doesn't meet his requirement. That's some winning advice right there.


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Eric Strand
Re: Best bargain for 4K camera?
on Jul 21, 2016 at 1:56:46 pm
Last Edited By Eric Strand on Jul 21, 2016 at 1:58:32 pm

Thanks for the additional input Gary. There is no camera in his budget that meets his requirements, which means he is going to have to compromise one of the features he wants... unless you're going to write him a check for the remaining 2-3k?

He said he does low light shooting in clubs: a7sii is king of low light
He said he wants 4K: a7sii does 4K internal
He said he doesn't want a big camera like the FS7 or Ursa, which I believe you recommended Gary: a7sii is a small mirrorless body
He said he has a budget of 6-7k: a7sii body used from B&H is 2700
He calls 4K 60 the "device of his dreams" which to me means he realizes he may have to compromise: the a7sii will at least give him 60 or 120 fps in a resolution, again, compromise.

The point of these forums, Gary, as I'm sure you know, is to offer options and ideas that others may not have thought of. I'm not sure why you're angry or attacking others for putting forth valid compromises to his problem.

@ericstrand11


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Gary Huff
Re: Best bargain for 4K camera?
on Jul 21, 2016 at 3:26:55 pm

[Eric Strand] "There is no camera in his budget that meets his requirements, which means he is going to have to compromise one of the features he wants."

He already stated how much he was willing to compromise in his original post.

[Matteo Proromo] "If I need to make sacrifices to stay in my budget, 4K is a must, while I could be happy with 50fps (but nothing less)."

Of course, he doesn't understand that there is no difference between 4K at 50p and 60p, so there is no going less other than straight down to 30p. I take him at his word that he wants "nothing less" than 50p. I gave him the options and it's up to him to come back and state where he could potentially compromise further.

[Eric Strand] "The point of these forums, Gary, as I'm sure you know, is to offer options and ideas that others may not have thought of."

If they are legitimate. You just gleaned over the first post and offered a suggestion that was not entirely legitimate given the information. This happens a lot. There was even another poster who recommended a camera for which he didn't even own the 4K upgrade, didn't work in 4K, and so had no idea if the 4K was even of quality or not. This is just clutter.


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Eric Strand
Re: Best bargain for 4K camera?
on Jul 21, 2016 at 4:35:04 pm

You yourself said the camera he wants doesn't exist within his budget. You claim my suggestion isn't legitimate, yet suggest two cameras that are above his budget and larger than he wants. By your premise, your suggestions are no more legitimate than mine. I'm hoping Matteo writes and explains why he so desperately needs 4K60, because I'll be shocked if 1080 60 doesn't suffice. Do you really not accept that the a7sii is one option for Matteo, given the fact it sounds like he isn't quite sure what he's looking for? I'm not arguing it's the best camera out there or the end all be all for him.

It's apparent we have different philosophies on dealing with people. I agree that his statement of "nothing less than 50p," indicates he isn't sure what he's asking. To me it means it's up to people like you and me to explain the pros and cons of various options out there to try and find a solution that works for him. I also agree with you it's not responsible for other people to post solutions they were proven to not have researched.

@ericstrand11


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Matteo Proromo
Re: Best bargain for 4K camera?
on Jul 21, 2016 at 5:03:29 pm

Hi guys. Thanks for all the help.
About the "Of course, he doesn't understand the difference": show me 10 videos in high quality at 50 and 60 fps but in a mixed order, and I'll be able to tell you which is which just by looking at it. ;)
If you want to know, I'm an erotic producer. The reason why I'm so "open" about the features of the camera is not that I don't know what I'm doing, but it's just that I'm the boss of myself, so I don't have to fulfill a client's specific request. Nevertheless, the field of adult entertainment is quickly developing and I need to keep up at its speed, technically speaking. In our field, 4K is the new benchmark between what is old and what is not, whether your professional opinion agrees or not: we're talking business standards here, like shooting for the cinema at 24fps.


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Eric Strand
Re: Best bargain for 4K camera?
on Jul 21, 2016 at 6:58:54 pm

Ha okay honestly I didn't see that one coming. Makes more sense now and I understand why you're asking for 4K 60 and pushing for the latest tech. The Panasonic GH5 is rumored to be announced at Photokina in September and include 4K 60, but obviously that's means we're some months away from being able to actually buy one if those rumors are even true.

@ericstrand11


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Gary Huff
Re: Best bargain for 4K camera?
on Jul 22, 2016 at 3:28:49 am

[Matteo Proromo] "About the "Of course, he doesn't understand the difference": show me 10 videos in high quality at 50 and 60 fps but in a mixed order, and I'll be able to tell you which is which just by looking at it. ;)"

A) No you can't.

B) That's not what I meant. You don't understand there is little difference in processing power between 60 and 50, so that you're not going to find a camera that can do 50p in 4K and not 60p. You're going to get 60p in 4K and 50p will be a feature for PAL territories.


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Gary Huff
Re: Best bargain for 4K camera?
on Jul 22, 2016 at 2:53:15 pm

[Eric Strand] "You claim my suggestion isn't legitimate, yet suggest two cameras that are above his budget and larger than he wants."

Because those are his only and ever options at this point. He needs to know where the tech stands with his requirements. He said no less than 50p in 4K and those are his ONLY options with the criteria he said he could not bend on. Price is way more flexible than needed specs. Size to a somewhat different extent. But you will NEVER shoot 4Kp60 on an A7S.

I realize you are doing your best to save face, but this is simply not a good tactic on your part.


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Eric Strand
Re: Best bargain for 4K camera?
on Jul 22, 2016 at 8:16:32 pm

[Gary Huff] "Price is way more flexible than needed specs"

I didn't realize that you knew how flexible his budget was.

[Gary Huff] "I realize you are doing your best to save face"

Hahahahaha save face, okay Gary, neither of us are going to change the other's mind.

Matteo I hope we've helped in some way.

@ericstrand11


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Gary Huff
Re: Best bargain for 4K camera?
on Jul 22, 2016 at 8:47:06 pm

[Eric Strand] "I didn't realize that you knew how flexible his budget was. "

I don't think you understand the difference between the flexibility of budget vs the inflexibility of specs.


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Eric Strand
Re: Best bargain for 4K camera?
on Jul 22, 2016 at 8:57:09 pm

[Gary Huff] "the inflexibility of specs."

That's ironic considering part of his spec says

the idea of a big, heavy, long, "proper" video camera scares me
I was considering a compact DSLR

and yet you suggest cameras that are outside of that spec, even if his budget is flexible.

@ericstrand11


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Gary Huff
Re: Best bargain for 4K camera?
on Jul 22, 2016 at 11:54:52 pm

[Eric Strand] "the idea of a big, heavy, long, "proper" video camera scares me. I was considering a compact DSLR"

"Considering a compact" and "no less than 50p" are very different strengths, Eric. Plus, I did acknowledge the DSLR 1DX Mark II, which is not compact either. Because of the heat generated by processing 4Kp60, the body size has physical limitations due to physics at this point. And, to some people, the FS7 isn't that large, and it's definitely no where near as heavy as an Epic Dragon or F55.

You are still looking rather poor in trying to compare. Remember, you gave a suggestion that does not shoot what he wants. At all. ZERO. And, sure, I had to branch out on other requirements, absolutely, because his post gave an indication that, everything else being equal, HFR 4K was not an option to compromise on. So you can continue down this path, but it makes you look incredibly petty.


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Don Simpson
Re: Best bargain for 4K camera?
on Jul 23, 2016 at 7:16:52 pm

Please do not bait Gary.

His ill humour is well documented and he is easily regarded as the second biggest horse's a$$ on the Cow*. He has been the subject of complaints to both forum hosts and Cow leaders in the past for his rude and condescending posts. Cow members do talk to each other away from here.

His advice is at times okay and his work is solid enough; not great, but certainly adequate for mid corporate level work so the cause of his foul personality is unknown. Some people are just nasty for no reason. Sometimes people are simply jerks.

Ignore him. Doing otherwise will get you nowhere.

*The #1 Official Horse's Rear on the Cow is obviously Bob Zelin which will come as a surprise to no one. However Bob is a curmudgeon who prides himself on his biting personality and always follows it with legitimate and genuinely helpful advice; he actually cares and has a good heart.

**Obviously this post will be deleted by the hosts, but fortunately the email pushes will get it through to subscribers in this forum.

Cheers


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Gary Huff
Re: Best bargain for 4K camera?
on Jul 23, 2016 at 9:11:17 pm

Thanks for the big laugh, Don.


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