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TV and 23.97 frames per sec

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Ali Quintana
TV and 23.97 frames per sec
on Dec 23, 2015 at 6:47:17 am

old movies were 23.976 and on TV converted to 29.97 you would see kinda strobing while panning.

Most movies these days on TV do not have that any more, all panning is smooth. Does this mean that movies these days are filmed at 29.97?

And what about TV commercials, what frame rate are they filmed at?


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Todd Terry
Re: TV and 23.97 frames per sec
on Dec 23, 2015 at 6:56:39 am

Not exactly.

Real movies were not shot at 23.976 fps.

Historically, real films (those shot on actual film), where shot at true 24fps.

Today, the majority of digitally-originated "films" are shot at either 23.976fps or true 24fps. Electronically-originated projects destined primarily for the big screen, or for when an actual film print is to be struck, are typically shot at true 24fps. Projects destined primarily for television are typically shot at 23.976.

Television commercials that have a cinematic look are typically shot at 23.976fps, although some are shot at 29.97fps, progressive (24p vs. 30p), which gives a slightly smoother look to motion (although appears, to my eye, a bit less cinematic).

No theatrical projects to speak of are ever shot at 29.97... 24fps is still the norm.

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com



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Ali Quintana
Re: TV and 23.97 frames per sec
on Dec 23, 2015 at 2:05:18 pm

Great info, thank you.

So the modern movies that are smooth and do not give that stuttering (strobe) effect when panning from left to right, its a better conversion then? from 24 to 29.97?

Or why then are they so really smooth?

I filmed commercials at 23,976 and converted to 29.97 and it does still give the strobe (did the conversion just in AE, dropped it into a 29.97 composition and re-rendered. i think its because for every 4th frame there is a still frame added which is the same as the 3rd frame.


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Todd Terry
Re: TV and 23.97 frames per sec
on Dec 23, 2015 at 3:44:46 pm

Oh gosh... this is one of the harder things to explain (up there with explaining the difference between shutter speed and frame rate, which some people just don't get)....

I will try to give a short/simple explanation, but it would probably be better for you to do some Googling and research about "3:2 pulldown" to get a clearer explanation that I can do.



[Ali Quintana] " for every 4th frame there is a still frame added which is the same as the 3rd frame."

Well... this is not what you want to see, so at some point your conversion is incorrect.

When 24fps (or 23.976fps) is converted to 60i (30 frames per second, 60 interlaced fields), this is what SHOULD happen (again, this is pretty hard to explain).

Think of the 24fps footage as frames. Since the 30fps footage is interlaced and each frame made up of two fields, lets not think of it as 30 frames but rather as strings of 60 fields.

SO... we need to convert 24 frames per second to 60 fields per second. How to do that?... since that is not easy math.

Here's how that is done, with the "3:2" pulldown...

Film frame 1 becomes video fields 1, 2, and 3 (using three fields).

Film frame 2 becomes video fields 4 and 5 (using two fields).

Film frame 3 becomes video fields 6, 7, and 8 (using three fields).

Film frame 4 becomes video fields 9 and 10 (using two fields).

This 3:2 pattern continues, and when you reach the end of 24 film frames you also perfectly reach the last video field.

This is NOT what you are getting when you are seeing yours with three frames and then a repeated frame.

What you SHOULD be seeing is three interlaced frames followed by two progressive frames. That is, when you toggle through your converted 29.97 video you should see interlaced images for three frames (you'll see motion vibrate if viewed on a CRT monitor), followed by two progressive frames).

So, somewhere in your conversion process things aren't right. We don't use AE for conversion... here's how we do it...

Since we shoot everything 24p (23,976) we also produce everything at 24p. When we have a final 24p master, then we output a 60i version for broadcast. We do this in Premiere just by changing the output settings, and it works perfectly.

Someone who is more of an AE expert might be able to give you better guidance as to how to do it properly in After Effects... but once you have the proper 3:2 pulldown conversion, your motion should be smooth.

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com



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Ali Quintana
Re: TV and 23.97 frames per sec
on Dec 23, 2015 at 7:54:42 pm

OK, great advice, thank you very much.

I also do the whole production in 23.976.

So I can render out a quicktime (master) at 23.976 from AE and then go import it to premiere and render out at 60i?

Should I leave the project set to 23.976 though?

Any other settings I should be aware of?

Thanks again, this is really helpful.


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Todd Terry
Re: TV and 23.97 frames per sec
on Dec 23, 2015 at 8:12:57 pm

Ok, this advice should be the same whether you are doing compositing in AE or editing in Premiere... here's how I would do it...

Firstly, do ALL your work in a 23.976 composition in AE, or on a 23.976 timeline in Premiere. Create your master at 23.976.

Then in Premiere, still on a 23.976 timeline, output a 60i version of your project. Go FILE > EXPORT > MEDIA (or with the timeline active just click CONTROL + M). That brings up the Export Settings box. It will likely be defaulted to whatever specs your timeline is, which would be 23.976. After you select what format you want to output, under the VIDEO tab change the FRAME RATE from 23.98 TO 29.97. You will now also get radio buttons that let you select whether you want it to be interlaced or progressive. You want this to be interlaced for television use, so click the "Upper First" button under "Field Type." Click the picture below to see it full size, it's hard to read embedded here.



Export your new file, and that should give you a 60i file with a perfect 2:3 pulldown and your motion should look smooth.

There is no doubt a similar way to do this in AE, but we just use AE for compositing, and do all of our actual editing in Premiere.

Hope this helps.

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com



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Robert Trip
Re: TV and 23.97 frames per sec
on Jan 2, 2016 at 1:46:41 am

Rule of thumb if you know what your output is then shoot at what ever frame rate you plan to distribute on. But if your shooting for a wide release with mix outlets then go with what ever makes you feel good. if shooting 24fps makes you tingle in side then shoot that way. Most of the time projects need to change frame rates often but you won't notices it when viewing it on tv. But when shooting you will. another words capture the image the way you intend it to look worry about conversion later. Tapes rolled at 29.97 because of the 60hz frequency that television sets displayed. lot of history their. today it really doesn't matter except for broadcast standard. which has to be 29.97 or 60 fps unless your in the uk which is 25 and 50 fps. I think the UK and metric system is odd but thats just me.


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Todd Terry
Re: TV and 23.97 frames per sec
on Jan 2, 2016 at 4:01:36 am

[Robert Trip] "Rule of thumb if you know what your output is then shoot at what ever frame rate you plan to distribute on."

Whoa... sorry but no no noooooo.

You need to do a final output at the proper frame rate for your distribution, but you should shoot at whatever rate you want the project to look like.

For example, 95% of what I produce are TV commercials, destined for broadcast television. That would be 29.97fps interlaced, of course (60i). But I'm usually going for a cinematic look, not a "videoy" look, so I virtually always shoot at 24p (23.976, progressive)... because that's the look I want. I almost never ever shoot 29.97 interlaced (I literally can't remember the last time I did), as I don't want the video look.

So in my case, as I pointed out earlier, I shoot at 24p, I produce at 24p, and then I make a final output for television at 60i. By the way, I also output a 24p master for archival purposes, which I consider the "real" master. And if a client ever needs a version for computer-based viewing (such as a copy of their commercial to put on YouTube), then we output a 24p version for that.

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com



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Robert Trip
Re: TV and 23.97 frames per sec
on Jan 2, 2016 at 4:20:33 am

If you read what I stated you will see that I agreed with your statement. My point here is this if your always shooting for one outlet then make sure that outlet meets that requirement. That said if you are going for a particular look then soot for that look. I agree that 24fps looks better but it may not always be the most appropriate frame rate.


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Todd Terry
Re: TV and 23.97 frames per sec
on Jan 2, 2016 at 7:01:43 am

[Robert Trip] " My point here is this if your always shooting for one outlet then make sure that outlet meets that requirement."

Yes, make sure your final output meets their requirements. Not your shooting. Shoot for the look you want, not for what the output requirements are. That's a post issue, not a shooting issue at all.

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com



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