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HD Killing Cinematography?

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eric dole
HD Killing Cinematography?
on Aug 21, 2010 at 6:34:32 pm

This may not be the right forum for my concern, but I don’t know where else to post it within CC.

I apologize if my concern is so “yesterday” and I would appreciate it if you direct me to past threads on this.

I finally get around to getting a flat screen HD monitor and blu-ray player ( Samsung 46” LED , Series 6-6400, 1080p, Sony Blu-ray BDP-S370/BX37.) I install and throw on a blu-ray as well as a traditional DVD. The large screen is nice, the clarity is good and I like the rich colors. Yet, I am astounded at what I am not seeing. It feels like I am no longer watching a film. It feels like I am on the actual set of the movie watching the making of, taped on video. The lighting schemes become more obvious, some of the special effects start to look cheesy. In short the illusion and magic of film is gone. I could go on an on about this. For sports on TV or documentaries, I can see the advantage. But, my first impression of HD for movies is a disaster.

So, are my settings on the monitor or the Blu-Ray player simply wrong somewhere?

Or, did I lose something precious went I put away my analog monitor, which I am never going to get back?

Eric

P.S I did tweak the contrast and deepened the blacks, but this did not resolve the issue explained above.


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Emre Tufekci S.O.A.
Re: HD Killing Cinematography?
on Aug 21, 2010 at 7:12:08 pm

You problem is your TV, it is an 120Hz monitor that takes away the 24P feel and makes everything look like soap opera.

Great for sports, sucks for movies.

Emre Tufekci
http://www.productionpit.com



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Todd Terry
Re: HD Killing Cinematography?
on Aug 21, 2010 at 7:21:47 pm

Yep, those high-Hz monitors are the work of the devil.

They think they are doing you a favor by interpolating the so-called "missing" frames in 24p footage, but those frames aren't missing... they were never meant to be there. Saw a bit of "Pirates of the Carribean" on one in a store, it looked like the world's most expensive home movie.

Great for sports, terrible for drama.

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com



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eric dole
Re: HD Killing Cinematography?
on Aug 21, 2010 at 8:50:07 pm

Many thanks for the responses. So, what it the solution? Can you recommend a set that won't turn Laurence of Arabia into the Soap channel?

Eric


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eric dole
Re: HD Killing Cinematography?
on Aug 22, 2010 at 1:04:39 am

I'm continuing the thread here. Just came back from an electronic store where I compared the same LED set with one having the 60Hz refresh rate and one with the 120 Hz refresh rate and indeed the 60Hz rate looks "normal" whereas the 120 Hz rate looks like it was shot on my home camcorder. AMAZING!
Once again, the consumer gets left in the dark. I am also surprised that the movie industry is not on top of this. After all, each time you look at a movie and it looks like crap, you are devaluing your product.

Eric


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Carlton Rahmani
Re: HD Killing Cinematography?
on Aug 22, 2010 at 8:41:34 am

You SHOULD be able to select back down to 60Hz if you want. Check your manual. I'm saying this because the sales demo (at a retailer that will be unnamed) guy was switching back and forth to show us how much 'better' the crap looked. Give it a try, or return your TV for one that will.


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eric dole
Re: HD Killing Cinematography?
on Aug 22, 2010 at 6:43:47 pm

Carlton,

Thanks for the suggestion. But, unfortunately the box to this set says "Auto Motion Plus, 120 HZ" and there is not even a mention of an option for 60Hz in the manual. I am going to be returning this model.
I must add that I am still in disbelief that I have run into this issue. I wonder how many other people have also dealt with this and how many will just live with a set that makes everything look like the Soap Channel.

Eric


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John Fishback
Re: HD Killing Cinematography?
on Aug 22, 2010 at 8:26:00 pm

Interestingly, I read a thread just the other day talking about how one of the afternoon soaps changed to shooting 24P. The audience was so upset with the look that the production changed back to 60i. Apparently, the show didn't look "real" anymore. Go figure.

John

MacPro 8-core 2.8GHz 8 GB RAM OS 10.5.8 QT7.6.4 Kona 3 Dual Cinema 23 ATI Radeon HD 3870, 24" TV-Logic Monitor, ATTO ExpressSAS R380 RAID Adapter, PDE enclosure with 8-drive 6TB RAID 5
FCS 3 (FCP 7.0.2, Motion 4.0.2, Comp 3.5.2, DVDSP 4.2.2, Color 1.5.2)

Pro Tools HD w SYNC IO & 192 Digital I/O, Yamaha DM1000, Millennia Media HV-3C, Neumann U87, Schoeps Mk41 mics, Genelec Monitors, PrimaLT ISDN


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Carlton Rahmani
Re: HD Killing Cinematography?
on Aug 22, 2010 at 10:22:54 pm

Eric,

I just checked out a(nother) forum--is your TV a Samsung?--and one guy stated that he put it in 'game mode on' and that put it back to 60Hz for when he wants to watch movies. Give it a try (and let me know how it goes). Other than that, beware of retailers and the crap gimmicks they're trying to pawn.


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eric dole
Re: HD Killing Cinematography?
on Aug 23, 2010 at 5:13:07 am

Carlton,

Thanks for your post. This model WAS a Samsung and I was so disappointed that I returned it. I visited another store where a salesman told me that you can actually turn off the 120 Hz on that set. He did on the floor model but the image still had a weird feel to it.

I have decided to do more research before getting a new set.

I'm curious how this issue is going to play out. Has this issue not made a lot of noise yet because people are using older HD set with 60Hz?

While inspecting monitors at the store today, the one set that seemed to give out a correct image was a 60Hz model that is probably considered old by now.

Eric


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Micah McDowell
Re: HD Killing Cinematography?
on Aug 25, 2010 at 5:19:36 pm

I was just looking at new TVs last night, and I concur that the 120hz mode with motion smoothing is insanely annoying on a 24p film. I can't imagine that there's any models which DON'T have a way to disable it; if there are, that's pretty sad.

Supposedly, a 120hz set with motion smoothing turned OFF still has an advantage when viewing 24p material. It can use 5:5 pulldown from a 24p Blu-Ray (repeating each frame 5x) instead of 3:2 pulldown like most televisions, so telecine judder is eliminated and it gives it motion characteristics like watching a film in a theater. So, there is a bright side to this gimmicky tech.


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Erik Freid
Re: HD Killing Cinematography?
on Aug 25, 2010 at 6:11:21 pm

Get a plasma!, better contrast ratio, no refresh issues, 1080P look s great. I have a Panasonic that is THX cert. and the color reproduction is fantastic (not like film) but better than any LCD/LED I have seen. The only monitor I have seen better is my friends Kuro (also a plasma) which I am serious jealous of. But he said Panasonic last year hired most of the old Kuro design team when Pioneer stopped making plasmas.

Erik Freid | MediaSilo, Inc
207 South Street | Third Floor | Boston, MA 02111
t. 617.423.6200, m. 617.306.8632, f. 617.507.8577
http://www.mediaSilo.com


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eric dole
Re: HD Killing Cinematography?
on Aug 28, 2010 at 2:39:58 am

OK, well here's the verdict. Got myself a LG Plasma, the picture looks great, with a 50 inch it almost feels like I have my very own projection room at home, Laurence of Arabia (my test DVD) does not look like I am watching the Soap channel, all that for 2/3 of the price of the Samsung. Others will disagree. But, I am a happy camper, life is good.

Eric


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grinner hester
Re: HD Killing Cinematography?
on Aug 29, 2010 at 4:12:46 pm

This was spoken much of 15 years ago or so. HD has changed everything from make up artists to set designers because we simply see more resolution. Disaster? If evolution is. How long did folks think people were gonna go through the process and expense of film?



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eric dole
Re: HD Killing Cinematography?
on Aug 29, 2010 at 8:17:26 pm

Grinner,

I think you misread my post. The issue is not HD. The issue is that when I buy a $1K TV set and Laurence of Arabia looks like it was shot by my five year old nephew on his kid camcorder, there is a problem.
There is a problem for the consumer and there is a problem for the film industry. Every film played advertises cinematography whether shot on film or HD. Somehow, the TV manufacturers and Hollywood forgot to have that meeting. Somewhere out there, there are people watching beautifully shot movies on an HD screen that is displaying the original work in a completely inappropriate manner. I am surprised that 15 years after people made the change that you bring up, I had to experience what I experienced. It is not good for the consumers, Hollywood or the TV manufacturers for that matter. That's all.

Eric


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Carlton Rahmani
Re: HD Killing Cinematography?
on Aug 29, 2010 at 10:22:23 pm

Here's one perspective:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/highdefinition-television-promises-sharper...


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Erik Freid
Re: HD Killing Cinematography?
on Aug 30, 2010 at 8:11:59 pm

Plasma is the way to go for people in the industry, you can tell the difference. I have the 42" (SMALL PLACE :-)) version of this http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-VIERA-TC-P50G10-50-Inch-Plasma/dp/B001UAEWU...

and LOVE it.

Erik Freid | MediaSilo, Inc
207 South Street | Third Floor | Boston, MA 02111
t. 617.423.6200, m. 617.306.8632, f. 617.507.8577
http://www.mediaSilo.com


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