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Shutter Speed for 24pn or 30pn Shoot?

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Dan Pavlik
Shutter Speed for 24pn or 30pn Shoot?
on Sep 2, 2009 at 4:54:25 pm

Hi.

I'm shooting a feature comedy, not a bunch of action, and trying to make the decision on frame rate.

If I shoot 24pn, is there a optimal shutter speed to mitigate the picture stutter?

Or, is 30pn a better way to shoot it?

Ideally I'd like to go to film, but I know it's a long shot. My concern is when I send out DVDs to distributors, agents, etc., the stutter will drive viewers crazy.

Any help is greatly appreciated.
Dan

Hi I'm Dan. My current project is a feature comedy entitle Nominated. You can learn about it at http://www.nominatedthemovie.com


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Todd Terry
Re: Shutter Speed for 24pn or 30pn Shoot?
on Sep 2, 2009 at 6:15:04 pm

If you want it to look truly "filmic," then 24fps is definitely the way to go... especially if there is any chance that you will ever need to strike a real film print.

For 24fps, a "normal" shutter speed would be 1/48th. That shouldn't give you bad stutter, it would be the same amount as if you were shooting real film. Faster shutter speeds are going to give you a choppier more staccato look. Slower ones will have more blur.

People who shoot 24p but complain about the stutter generally are forgetting that they should be shooting as if it were real film, not video. That means action, blocking, camera moves, and action speed as if you were shooting a full-blown 35mm feature, not a home video. Often times that means things like camera moves that are a bit slower than one might do with video... pans, for instance, are notorious for displaying stutter, not only for 24p video but for real film as well. The ASC cinematographers handbook will give lots of charts and such, things like "do not exceed" speeds for pans for various focal lengths. But mostly it's just a matter of practice, and learning the limitations of the medium.


T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com






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Richard Herd
Re: Shutter Speed for 24pn or 30pn Shoot?
on Sep 2, 2009 at 7:56:44 pm

Here's a thing to read carefully: http://magazine.creativecow.net/article/the-truth-about-2k-4k-the-future-of...

Of course film itself isn't actually 24fps, that's sync sound--an application of shooting film. With video that's unnecessary. For example, when storage space and shooting conditions allow for it, I prefer to shoot 720p/59.94 with sync audio.

Also check out the Camera Assessment Series from this month's American Cinematographer magazine, and http://lurkertech.com/lg/

There's a lot of details to wade through.

And now to answer your questions, based on my opinion.

If I shoot 24pn, is there a optimal shutter speed to mitigate the picture stutter? I think you've confused terms, here: "frame rate" with "shutter angle." Multiply those to get your exposure. 1/24 fps * 180/360 (reduces to 1/2) shutter angle = 1/48 (1/24 * 1/2). You really want to get confused? Google: sampling frequency, discrete cosine transformations, signal. IMO, you should run tests all the way through post and sit down with a bag of popcorn and watch it. Then decide which looks better to you.

Or, is 30pn a better way to shoot it? Depends what you see when you screen it.

Having said that, let me say: Whatever you decide, stick with it the whole way through! The fancy gadgets we use can pretty much manage themselves, but mixing gets painful.


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Dan Pavlik
Re: Shutter Speed for 24pn or 30pn Shoot?
on Sep 2, 2009 at 10:30:54 pm

Good stuff, Richard. thanks.

I'm shooting with an HVX170 w/ lens adapter. My opinion is that the shallow depth of field is what gives video a not-so-video look. that coupled with well-lit, nicely composed shots is what I'm after.

So I guess my real question is, If I shoot any other frame rate other than 24, am I screwed down the line if I get lucky enough to go to film? The "film look" not withstanding, is it still possible to go to film if I shoot 720p/59.94?

I appreciate the help and advice! I will do tests.
Dan

Hi I'm Dan. My current project is a feature comedy entitle Nominated. You can learn about it at http://www.nominatedthemovie.com


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Richard Herd
Re: Shutter Speed for 24pn or 30pn Shoot?
on Sep 2, 2009 at 11:58:27 pm

The answer is yes.
The question is: Who's gonna pay for it? If a film print is a definite possibility, then consider shooting on film.

I personally don't worry about a transfer to film because it's just so unrealistic, from an exhibition and distribution point of view.

Having said that, it's important that you use the camera to its fullest dynamic range, in every shot, so YOU have control over "the look."

Somewhere below I posted how I achieved a very nice look with the HVX200, by being very careful with the f/stops.


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Dan Pavlik
Re: Shutter Speed for 24pn or 30pn Shoot?
on Sep 2, 2009 at 9:28:43 pm

thanks for that, Todd.

Camera movement will be kept to a minimum, but I can still see stutter when people walk through a locked down frame.

Is this a normal situation?

I guess the thing I'm worried about is I make a DVD for review, that it drives the viewer crazy. I'm just wondering if a 24p timeline can output a different rate or a pull-up/pull-down to mitigate the stutter when going to DVD?

Might be a question for another thread. thanks for your help!
Dan

Hi I'm Dan. My current project is a feature comedy entitle Nominated. You can learn about it at http://www.nominatedthemovie.com


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Alan Lloyd
Re: Shutter Speed for 24pn or 30pn Shoot?
on Sep 3, 2009 at 11:20:31 pm

Dan - the way to solve this is spatial. Have people move through the frame at angles, coming forward or receding, not simply crossing. This won't eliminate flicker/stutter, what it will do is make it less apparent. Watch well-directed, well-edited features. (Mostly older features, as many now are neither.) Rarely if ever does action cross the screen directly. It advances or recedes.

Depth of action, if not necessarily depth of field, is your friend.


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