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Mark D'Agostino
Greenscreen paint
on May 28, 2009 at 3:13:06 pm

We've done greenscreen for over 20 years from Ultimatte4 to 5, 6...We now primarily use Keylight and DVMattePro3. I have always used Rosco's Ultimatte paint and am wondering if that is still the best choice considering the software we now use. We have a hard two wall curved cyc around about 1,600sq ft of floor. We often paint all of that for wide stuff.

Thanks!


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John Fishback
Re: Greenscreen paint
on May 28, 2009 at 8:30:29 pm

Here's an interesting thread. Read the top and 4th from the bottom.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/digital-compositing-effects/109612-great-greensc...

John

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Mark D'Agostino
Re: Greenscreen paint
on May 28, 2009 at 8:56:08 pm

Thanks John,

I actually had read that post and plan to test that paint. I'm less concerned with the cost of the paint. I'm just trying to figure out which is the best.

We just finished a test with our HDX900 adding Rosco gel #389, Chroma Green, to our tungsten lights aimed at a Wescott green flex background. It improved the composite enough to convince me to add the gel from now on. It actually reduced the red channel which made for a better separation. I chose Chroma Green because it had a tighter green spike than the others including the LEE #738 in that forum you mentioned. Obviously, using this gel only works when I don't have to see the floor that the talent is on.

Since DVCProHD is compressed, (we record to a Firestore), we do have issues with compositing. We tried running directly from the HDX900 into FCP through our Blackmagic box using ProRes and the difference in the composite was dramatic. So I guess something like the AJA IO and a laptop would do the same for location stuff.




Mark D'Agostino
http://www.synergeticproductions.com


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John Fishback
Re: Greenscreen paint
on May 28, 2009 at 9:16:21 pm

Mark,

Very interesting. We've not tried gels as we've had good luck on stages with green backgrounds, but I'm going to try it next time and compare. We shoot DVCProHD720P - to P2 cards - and key with Keylight inside AfterFX (although, they've just introduced a FCP plugin). I don't know if you've seen the AJA KiPRO. http://www.aja.com/products/ki-pro/ It's a field recorder that records ProRes and up/down/cross-converts in real time.

John

MacPro 8-core 2.8GHz 8 GB RAM OS 10.5.5 QT7.5.5 Kona 3 Dual Cinema 23 ATI Radeon HD 3870
ATTO ExpressSAS R380 RAID Adapter, PDE Enclosure with 8-drive 6TB RAID 5
24" TV-Logic Monitor
Final Cut Studio 2 (up to date)

Pro Tools HD w SYNC IO, Yamaha DM1000, Millennia Media HV-3C, Neumann U87, Schoeps Mk41 mics, Genelec Monitors, PrimaLT ISDN


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Mark D'Agostino
Re: Greenscreen paint
on May 29, 2009 at 2:11:57 pm

Hi John,
We have researched the KiPro and it does look interesting. That would probably be a big step to a solution. Thanks for your feedback!

Mark D'Agostino
http://www.synergeticproductions.com


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Tim Kolb
Re: Greenscreen paint
on May 29, 2009 at 4:57:52 pm

well, this isn't the first time someone has done this type of research and testing...

I suspect that as far as simple light return, the rosco stuff is still better as that's what it's designed to do.

I guess if you're running on a shoestring, it's fine, but even in this economy, I think the billings lost due to all the hardware store runs and time spent dreaming up and executing test scenarios probably outweighs the savings unless you're buying 35 gallons at a time...

I use only the rosco stuff and I work primarily with Keylight...as always, if the lighting is competent, you're good to go.






TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,


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Mark Suszko
Re: Greenscreen paint
on May 30, 2009 at 10:46:06 pm

Tim, the part I agree with is what you said about lighting. In 20 years of using everything from the Rosco paint to hardware store paint to green table runners from the dollar store,i've had success with all of it, to one degree or another, and for me the only thing that universally matters is the lighting. I only used Rosco's "real" stuff once, ( never had budgets that could afford a LOT of it ) and while it is very good, my feeling is that modern gear can handle cheaper latex flat paint quite well, as long as, like you said, the lighting is competent.


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Tim Kolb
Re: Greenscreen paint
on May 31, 2009 at 3:00:36 am

It's just like some saying you can't key HDV or whatever...

There is very little that CAN'T be done. My only point is that it does seem occasionally that some can spend a day figuring out how to save 150 bucks...if you bill out at 750.00/day, you've lost money on that deal.

If you don't have any billing work that you're sacrificing to do the extra investigation and testing, then i guess it's worth it to look for alternative methods.






TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,


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Mark D'Agostino
Re: Greenscreen paint
on Jun 1, 2009 at 3:22:44 pm

In my 30 years in this biz lighting has been and always will be the one constant that is king. I totally agree that in the end that makes the real difference between a good key and a great key. I wouldn't minimize experimenting and I do agree it should be done in downtime as it was in my case. We knew ProRes as opposed to using the DVCProdHD files from a Firestore would make for a better key but it was nice to see that before trying it with a client on set. While any good green will work if it's lit correctly, we did learn that by goosing it with green gels made for a better key. We'll stick with the Rosco paint. I was never looking for a cheaper alternative. I was just curious if there was a better. John, Tim and Mark,thanks for the input! You guys are why these forums are so great.

Mark D'Agostino
http://www.synergeticproductions.com


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Jackie Woods
Re: Greenscreen paint
on Jun 15, 2009 at 6:39:37 am

What is the difference between green screen and blue screen?


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Mark Suszko
Re: Greenscreen paint
on Jun 15, 2009 at 11:58:29 am

Functionally, they are the same. You could chromakey using ANY color, though blue and green are farther away from the flesh tones on the color wheel, and that's helpful. But consider how many people wear some kind of blue clothing, as opposed to that shade of green we use. You can key blue jeans on a blue screen, for example, but you're making things harder.

I was giving a tour a few weeks ago and pointed out the green screen, saying something I had said many times before: "Nobody wears that particular color since disco died"... and wouldn't you know it, someone in the audience WAS wearing that kind of green, or something near to it. When they pointed that out and we all had a chuckle at my expense, I came back with "and that's why we still keep the blue around for those folks as well". (Note to self; REALLY look at what they wear before you tell that joke again).

A technical reason for using green over blue is that in a TV camera, the green channel shares room with the luminance information, so at least theoretically, you have a little more visual information from the green channel, as opposed to the red or blue, to pull the key from in that channel, but that somewhat depends on the particular TV system.


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John Fishback
Re: Greenscreen paint
on Jun 15, 2009 at 1:58:45 pm

Building on what Mark said, with video the blue channel is typically the noisest. Noise makes pulling a clean key harder.

John

MacPro 8-core 2.8GHz 8 GB RAM OS 10.5.5 QT7.5.5 Kona 3 Dual Cinema 23 ATI Radeon HD 3870
ATTO ExpressSAS R380 RAID Adapter, PDE Enclosure with 8-drive 6TB RAID 5
24" TV-Logic Monitor
Final Cut Studio 2 (up to date)

Pro Tools HD w SYNC IO, Yamaha DM1000, Millennia Media HV-3C, Neumann U87, Schoeps Mk41 mics, Genelec Monitors, PrimaLT ISDN


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