FORUMS: list search recent posts

Full Color Depth Cameras/Capture For Keying

COW Forums : Cinematography

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Adrian Sancho
Full Color Depth Cameras/Capture For Keying
on May 27, 2009 at 1:10:44 am

What cameras capture at full 4:4:4 color for keying? I'm sure they're not cheap, but are they readily available for rental? How bout interfacing hardware? Can you stream the data from these cams through something like firewire, or do you need something like an SDI interface? If so can whatever interfaces needed be rented?

I've also heard you can stream video data from many cameras through their HDMI ports. Is it possible to capture full color depth with these interfaces (from cameras that normally don't record full depth), or is this a compromise? If so what interfaces/cameras are used to do this?

I'm just trying to get some perspective on what it takes/costs to capture full depth color video for keying. Thanks.


Return to posts index

Richard Herd
Re: Full Color Depth Cameras/Capture For Keying
on May 27, 2009 at 10:14:25 pm

Here's a couple of camera names for you to search: the Thomson Viper & the Panavision Genesis.

The data management of this equipment is complicated. Renting these usually requires the appropriate experts: a crew for the camera operation, and a crew for the video village.



Return to posts index

Adrian Sancho
Re: Full Color Depth Cameras/Capture For Keying
on May 28, 2009 at 4:58:21 am

Thanks for your reply.

Are there no simpler alternatives or alternate approaches to shooting full depth color for keying?


Return to posts index


Jason Jenkins
Re: Full Color Depth Cameras/Capture For Keying
on May 28, 2009 at 5:19:44 pm

I believe I have read about capturing uncompressed or a high quality codec via HDMI output on consumer type cams. BlackMagic has the Intensity Pro card that captures via HDMI. You should look into that.

Jason Jenkins

Flowmotion Media

Video production... with style!


Return to posts index

Adrian Sancho
Re: Full Color Depth Cameras/Capture For Keying
on May 28, 2009 at 5:39:02 pm

Thanks for your reply. I believe the Black Magic interface is 4:2:2. That can work for some things, but certain types imagery need full color depth. Sometimes you can pull off luma mattes, but that's tricky. Sometimes you need full-depth chroma.

Thanks again.


Return to posts index

Richard Herd
Re: Full Color Depth Cameras/Capture For Keying
on May 28, 2009 at 6:38:51 pm

What kind of imagery?


Return to posts index


Tim Kolb
Re: Full Color Depth Cameras/Capture For Keying
on May 29, 2009 at 2:25:33 am

I would say that a situation that required 4:4:4 for adequate keying would be most likely on projects where we are talking about feature films and national commercials.

You can run an ARRI D21 or a Genesis or an F35 into an HDCAM SR deck at RGB 4:4:4 (440 Mbits/s or 880 Mbits/s), but it's not "simple" certainly, not to mention that handling uncompressed HD requires a pretty beefy edit system.



TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,


Return to posts index

Adrian Sancho
Re: Full Color Depth Cameras/Capture For Keying
on Jun 1, 2009 at 6:26:16 am

Hmmm, it's surprising that in this day and age you still can't get 4:4:4 digital capture without an elaborate setup. I remember a few years back JVC planned to release a camera with either 1/2 inch or 2/3 inch sensors that had a port that would allow you access to full 4:4:4 data output (the camera itself recorded to a compressed format). This was to be a model in the ~$25k range. I don't know what ever happened to that. Apparently it never materialized.

I have to say that I find the question of "What kind of imagery?" as odd. My experiences with keying have shown me that, short of a talking head, you need full color depth if you hope to get any kind of decent key from a chroma reference for most motion footage. If you work at it enough (re: roto spline masks) you can pull luma keys, but of course it's tedious. Even with a talking head you sometimes need at least 4:2:2 depth.

At this time I don't actually have any keying projects, I'm merely researching so that I have a better perspective on whatever resources I may have at my disposal down the road apiece when things hit the fan. It's a bit depressing to see things are still locked in to big budgets for full depth keying capabilities.


Return to posts index

Emre Tufekci S.O.A.
Re: Full Color Depth Cameras/Capture For Keying
on Jun 2, 2009 at 8:18:07 pm

Aside from the Genesis and Viper (as mentioned before) you can also use the new Panasonic 3700 with a dual link HD-SDI our to a SWR-1 Deck for a 4:4:4 capture.

The Genesis requires a large crew and demands a much higher rental fee (only available from panavision). Aside from your DoP an experienced AC and DIT is a must.

Viper shoots in a filmstream mode which requires DIT support on location.

The 3700 only has a 2/3 imager as opposed to the Genesis 35mm size but is easier to use as it is designed around an ENG type body (available at most rental houses).

There are new companies (including panavision) that are offering flash memeory based recording systems for 444 capture but they are still very expensive.

There are many reasons why a cheap 444 output capable camera is not on the market for 25K but I think with newer codecs like the AVC-U and similar advances the softwares we use, we will be able to handle motion and keying much easier in the future.

Emre Tufekci
http://www.productionpit.com



Return to posts index


Tim Kolb
Re: Full Color Depth Cameras/Capture For Keying
on Jun 4, 2009 at 12:49:27 pm

[Adrian Sancho] "it's surprising that in this day and age you still can't get 4:4:4 digital capture without an elaborate setup"

4:4:4 ends up being a relatively 'elaborate' setup for post... You can technically get 4:4:4 from any camcorder (remember those guys who made that borg-like Andromeda attachment for a DVX-100?) The problem is that the workstation you need to push it around is pretty beefy and frankly, there aren't many systems that can play it out or edit it.

I have a 4 TB array with 14 drives, dual controllers, fiber-optic interface and a custom-built workstation...and I can do 2 streams of HD uncompressed with some effects without rendering...but that array is grunting.

I think a lot of users think they want 4:4:4 but they don't consider that Y'CbCr video doesn't really benefit much from the extra color difference samples so most 4:4:4 applications are based on RGB configurations, and 1080, 29.97, 10 bit uncompressed RGB video runs about 15 GB a minute.

The only compressed options for 4:4:4 are HDcamSR (which is obviously restricted to tape) and CineForm.




TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,


Return to posts index

Adrian Sancho
Re: Full Color Depth Cameras/Capture For Keying
on Jun 5, 2009 at 7:13:01 am

>>The only compressed options for 4:4:4 are HDcamSR (which is obviously restricted to tape) and CineForm.<<

Are these lossless systems? Even at roughly 2:1 lossless ratios I wouldn't think it detrimental for comp work. It's only in the compositor where you'd need it (unless you want to torture yourself keying in your editor :-D), and after you're finished with the comp you can get back to a working format.


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]