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Craig Alan
studio paint color
on Aug 8, 2014 at 10:33:58 pm

I need to repaint a studio floor which is painted the same color as a white CYC wall. The floor is painted cork tiles.

I've attached two pairs of pictures. One pair is the cyc wall with a roscoe TV studio white tile sample as a reference and the other is small section of the dirty floor that needs cleaning and a new coat of paint with the same reference.

In one floor picture I cleaned an area with a degreaser.

Is the existing color good enough for general production or should we try to match the roscoe tile?

Two were shot with the white bulbs of a bank of LEDs that light the cyc wall

Two were with a kino flo 401 (reddish).

The cam was a canon 5D on auto white balance.

If needed I could reshoot with a white card and manual white balance.









Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Canon 5D Mark III/70D, Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV40, Sony Z7U/VX2000/PD170; FCP 6 certified; FCP X write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Bill Davis
Re: studio paint color
on Aug 9, 2014 at 6:49:36 pm

My opinion is that you're over thinking this.

Just generally mop the floor unless there is gunk that will keep the paint from adhering and re-paint it with paint mixed to match the wall color.

If you want to get fancy, you can have a pro come in and do it with epoxy paint which will be easier to clean and care for for the future. But the bottom line is that you don't need insane levels of perfection here. And the light color temp won't matter as long as it's reasonably close across the entire visual field.

My 2 cents.

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Craig Alan
Re: studio paint color
on Aug 9, 2014 at 8:19:00 pm

I don't disagree except that I am preparing to repaint the entire floor (3000 square feet) and figured I might as well use a shade of white/gray that lighting designers and colorists would find acceptable. If money was no object I'd get the roscoe primer and TV white but its more than double the cost of my getting the local paint shop to match a color. If the shade we have is fine (and its looks good enough to my eyes) it would save the cost of the primer which would only be needed over areas that are bare.

The more durable floor paints are quite reflective and not really good for the cameras. The matt finish is more prone to dirt and damage and therefore needs to be given a fresh coat. Going forward I'd like to maintain it with touch ups.

So I thought I'd ask.

On a side note,I knew the kino flos were a little on the warm side but the difference in these photos is more than I expected.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Canon 5D Mark III/70D, Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV40, Sony Z7U/VX2000/PD170; FCP 6 certified; FCP X write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Bill Davis
Re: studio paint color
on Aug 10, 2014 at 6:07:11 am

I honestly don't think it's gonna matter if the recipe for the paint is all that color precise (within reason) long as it's not something like a quarter or half stop difference in reflectivity, I think you'll be just fine.

And yeah, the Kino light look totally screwy. You sure a couple of the lamps wan't s wrapped in a minus green sleeve or something? That looks WAY too magenta.

And it doesn't look at all like tungsten tubes into a daylight setting either, which would have been more expected for a color shift.

Hey, wasn't the manual white balance process on a 5d something weird like having to take a still shot and then use that as a white reference? I wonder if the camera is stuck somehow on that?

Just grasping at straws.

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Craig Alan
Re: studio paint color
on Aug 10, 2014 at 5:44:47 pm

Thanks Bill,

Yes the 5D is a weird manual adjustment which is why I do not use it often. Taking a picture and then referring to it in correcting the setting.

However, something's off here. I will check everything when I get back to the studio.

I was tired from cleaning the floor so maybe I missed something. We occasionally use gels in front of the kino flo but usually just use C-47s or B-52s on the outside. I do have a gel frame though. But I really think I would have seen this.

I could try new bulbs and make sure they are studio temp 3200. The LEDs might be almost any temp so I'll check the documentation. Maybe the cam was not adjusting from the LED whites to the kino flo auto. I often put the 5d on tungsten setting in the studio for white balance. There I see a slight red/pink from the kino Flos which can easily be adjusted in FC. And it can be a very flattering warmth.

All that said, I assume that the only thing important here is the color of the paint vs a Roscoe tile and they look pretty close in both sets of pictures. Plus I learned yesterday, that if I am just touching up paint that is already in the school, the school has a budget for that. Something new or custom would require special budgeting.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Canon 5D Mark III/70D, Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV40, Sony Z7U/VX2000/PD170; FCP 6 certified; FCP X write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Bill Davis
Re: studio paint color
on Aug 10, 2014 at 6:44:29 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Aug 10, 2014 at 6:45:16 pm

Wait, you never mentioned you were using LEDs to light this.

BIG red flag there.

LEDs (particularly older units) often have a pronounced green spike in their output, which, of course, can have the effect of skewing an auto white balance circuit to compensate - making a scene look magenta.

Which is exactly what you're facing here.

As wonderful as LEDs are for power/light efficiency - are often HORRIBLE when it comes to color accuracy.

So now what you're seeing makes a lot more sense.

Color temp (and color accuracy!) matters a lot in this stuff. Pick a color temp and light type and make sure EVERYTHING lighting your cyc is the same.

That's going to be a thousand times more important than the paint on the wall being a few tones different.

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Craig Alan
Re: studio paint color
on Aug 10, 2014 at 6:53:06 pm

The whiter image used the LED banks on the cyc wall exclusively. The warmer image used the Kino Flos exclusively. But maybe the auto white balance was not adjusting.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Canon 5D Mark III/70D, Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV40, Sony Z7U/VX2000/PD170; FCP 6 certified; FCP X write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Bill Davis
Re: studio paint color
on Aug 10, 2014 at 7:01:23 pm

Quite possible.

If so, you'll may need to order "plusgreen" sleeves for your Kino tubes if you want to use them with these particular LEDs for studio lighting.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Rick Wise
Re: studio paint color
on Aug 10, 2014 at 7:11:12 pm

Or, add minus-green (magenta) to your LEDs. And in general, auto white-balance produces unsatisfactory results, including color shifts during shots. Highly recommended: manual white balance. If you are working with a Canon DSLR, get the free Magic Lantern firmware that makes manual white-balance so easy. (Use a gray card or pure white paper as the target, or get one of those white-balance lens caps that cost almost nothing on eBay.)

Rick Wise
Cinematographer
MFA/BFA Lighting and Camera Instructor Academy of Art University
San Francisco Bay Area
http://www.RickWiseDP.com


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Craig Alan
Re: studio paint color
on Aug 11, 2014 at 1:05:25 am

Thanks Rick. I'll look into the update.

I think something is set wrong in the camera.
We always manually white balance our video cams and the Canon has been set for studio temp and the color has always been fine. I switched it to auto white balance for this post, which the manual actually recommends, since I wasn't sure if the LED's white bulbs are studio temp or not. The kino's do seem a bit warmer than our fresnels but nothing like this. The Canon is capable of adding custom white balance adjustments that maybe got toyed with. (not the same as the manual white balance). I'll check it out when I get back to the studio. We have not had a color issue with either camera. The LEDs are mostly used only as a wash for the CYC wall including green screen except sometimes we play with using the spill off the CYC on a talent as an effect. With the kinos we either adjust the warm tone in post or sometimes keep it. This is the first I've seen on this intense red cast. We never use the white bulbs of the led banks all the way up but just as a way to lighten other colors or a white b.g. I was in a rush and just wanted advice on the paint job.

I look forward to a good way to manually white balance the 5D (particularly outdoors where the light temp is never the same).

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Canon 5D Mark III/70D, Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV40, Sony Z7U/VX2000/PD170; FCP 6 certified; FCP X write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Dennis Size
Re: studio paint color
on Aug 11, 2014 at 3:52:56 am

Get (borrow, rent, steal, buy) a color meter if you really care that much.
My rough guess is that the LED's are daylight balanced, or "close to daylight" (many LED's balance out at 4700K), and that the Kino's have 2900K lamps in them (which always read a bit pink).
DS



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Craig Alan
Re: studio paint color
on Aug 11, 2014 at 4:32:36 am

[Dennis Size] "My rough guess is that the LED's are daylight balanced, or "close to daylight" "

Thank you Dennis. That would be my guess too which is why I switched to auto white balance rather than studio temp. These LEDs were first used to wash the outside of buildings. I'll try to find the specs on them. They have been great on the cyc wall. Lots of fun mixing colors and adding gobo patterns and playing with the bounce off the cyc for certain shots. Maybe you need to reset auto again on the 5D when conditions change. I'll check the manual. And even better get the update Rick mentioned.

We have not had problems with color in our shoots with either camcorders or the Canon 5D.

However, a light meter sounds like a good idea. I found an old one in storage left with some nikon colored filters for a lens size I don't have that needs a particular battery. Not sure if it works but is real old school and I think high quality, fitted leather case, trigger, wheels for settings. Would not mind getting it up and running. I just think it would prove educational to see what the actual temp is of shots.

No one is chiming in about the paint being a poor color so I'm going to get started repainting tomorrow. I have some left over from when the cyc wall was painted and the school said if I need paint that matches what is there already and is getting old there is budget for that.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Canon 5D Mark III/70D, Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV40, Sony Z7U/VX2000/PD170; FCP 6 certified; FCP X write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Dennis Size
Re: studio paint color
on Aug 11, 2014 at 4:37:13 am

A light meter and a color meter are 2 different things.

The paint you use in immaterial. Because of your situation I'd suggest a relatively inexpensive paint since you'll need to repaint several times a year (depending on usage).
Just get a color that's close to TV White, or you'll hate yourself.
DS



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Craig Alan
Re: studio paint color
on Aug 11, 2014 at 5:53:23 am

that takes us full circle. do you think the pics of the paint color are close enough?

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Canon 5D Mark III/70D, Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV40, Sony Z7U/VX2000/PD170; FCP 6 certified; FCP X write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Mark Suszko
Re: studio paint color
on Aug 11, 2014 at 2:06:30 pm

Is the floor ever going to be in your shots, or is it just a surface to put the camera tripod/dollies/pedestals on? Why do you need the floor to be reflective at all, is what I'm wondering. A big white floor is going to add to the overall light level - is that a good thing? Or does it make sense to have the floor be darker, more subtractive? Bare, but leveled and well-sealed concrete may be all you need, using loose floor tiles or mats or carpet for areas that are in-shot. That's what we have.


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Craig Alan
Re: studio paint color
on Aug 12, 2014 at 6:14:41 am

[Mark Suszko] "Is the floor ever going to be in your shots"

Yes, we get lots of shots with the floor in view. I inherited this design 3 years ago. My first reaction was the same as yours. I've learned to enjoy it except it needs maintenance.

There are shoots in which we will place the talent near the CYC wall so that the LED's that are usually just used to wash the CYC b.g. are reflected onto the floor and talent. It's an interesting way to light and provides both a mood, a color scheme and backlighting. We also have a source 4 leko with gobos aimed at the floor which allows us to create patterns and the flat white is a good canvas for this. Most of the time I tell students to get far enough away from the CYC so that's he LED's spill does not disrupt their lighting.

No question a white floor adds to the light level of the room, but totally controlled by the lights, the room can get completely dark if we turn them off other than the exit signs which on occasion I tape over. It is a flat finish and not particularly reflective. Whether the floor is white or not you can put down rugs or whatever to change the look. I tried to get funding for roscoe studio tiles which would be easier to maintain but after initial approval it turns out we will be building a new studio in two years and they do not want to invest anymore in this one. Thus giving up on this I have started repainting the one I have. I should be able to get some paint for the job if I stay with the same color. If I want a different paint I need a different funding source.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Canon 5D Mark III/70D, Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV40, Sony Z7U/VX2000/PD170; FCP 6 certified; FCP X write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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