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Shooting Automobiles

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Todd Terry
Shooting Automobiles
on Jan 29, 2013 at 4:57:53 am

Hey guys...

A little bit out of my element here, advice welcome...

I have a relatively sizable three-day shoot coming up, bunch of commercials for a particular regional automobile dealers association.

I have to shoot several different cars with talent.

Now, I've shot more cars than I can count over the past few years... but they've always either been available light exteriors... or dealer showroom stuff where we just had to take their environment pretty much as-is and augment it and do with it as best we could.

This time though, is different. I've never shot vehicles in a controlled environment where we can do what we choose (although as you'll see the environment is pretty uncontrolled, just by the nature of it).

Our location is this gigantic building at an old historic train depot. This is the type of structure where 100 years ago they pulled the locomotives in to work on the big engines. Huge space, pretty cool environment, lots of gigantic windows as well.

Cool, but challenging...



By the way, we'll strike the draped Christmas lights on the poles (they're there because this venue is used for a lot of nighttime wedding receptions and things like that).

There will be vehicles (one at a time) in the center there, arcing dolly track around, jib for crane shots, etc. Setups include talent in the extreme foreground, as well as back with the car in some shots.

I know how to light the talent... I can do that in my sleep and with one eyeball tied behind my back. Making the car look good is a little harder.

It's a bright enough environment, and I'm shooting with the C300PL with f/1.3 superspeeds, so there's no exposure worries at all. So I have no issues with the quantity of light, but more concerned about the quality of it.

My first guess was to make sure the vehicles have something decent to reflect... assuming it'd be best to fly big frames with silks or white solids to create reflection objects...



Think I'm on the right track?

I have to use the instruments I have on hand... we used to have a huge lighting rental house here... but they sold out to a bigger firm and they moved the whole shootin' match to Nashville.

As for HMIs, I got two 1200w PARs, one 1200w fresnel, one 575w fresnel, and a 4K fresnel (not totally sure I can use the bigass 4K in this venue... house power is dicey and no budget for a genny).

Kinos include two 4' 4-banks, one 401 Diva, and the little 6" Kino car kit.

Also have several LED instruments of several flavors.

Thoughts anyone? John? Rick? Dennis? Anyone else?


Thanks all, gurus...

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com



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Mark Suszko
Re: Shooting Automobiles
on Jan 29, 2013 at 6:44:41 pm

In the "anyone else" category, the nominee is...me?

I was thinking about the same as what you illustrate in the photo, but I wonder if you'll need a polarizer to moderate reflections on the windows. Across the bodywork, yes, you want the big white source. Across the windows, I'm not so sure... also, the model in your illustration is heavily tinted in the glass.

Might want to put a little light under the body or bounce it off the floor from low behind, to get a scatter along the ground.

Do you have a hazer or fogger? Those windows could turn real pretty with some haze, at the right time of day.


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Todd Terry
Re: Shooting Automobiles
on Jan 29, 2013 at 7:05:53 pm

Mark I never think of you as "anyone else"...

Dunno about the polarizer... sometimes you don't see TOO many window reflections in high-end auto photography, but sometimes you do... sometimes you'll see huge washes of white reflections... so, I dunno.

The model in the illustration was just an image ripped from the net to have a car to stick in the 3D model... it's not representative of anything real.

Yeah we have two hazers and a fog machine and I agree that would be potentially cool... but this is a huuuuge room (no idea of the cubic feet, but it's way up there). Also while that classic sun-streaming-through-the-Grand-Central-windows shot would be awesome... we can't pick a "right time of day" or magic hour to shoot... we have eight spots to shoot and a bazillion setups so we are going to be shooting constantly for three days, whatever we do has to look good ALL the time.

Interesting idea to scatter light under the body, hadn't thought of that.

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com



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Bill Davis
Re: Shooting Automobiles
on Jan 29, 2013 at 7:07:13 pm

Todd.

You're definitely on the right track.

Ideally, you need soft sources that are larger than the object being lit.

The "full tilt" solution is to fly a lighted softbox over the car that's larger than the car itself. I know that often impractical, but they do make rigs specifically to do this. (google "car softbox" to see examples)

The result of that approach is smooth wide highlights that caress the cars curves and help define the shape.

As you know, the key with anything reflective is that you're not really lighting the surface, you're managing the reflections of the instruments on the reflective surfaces of the subject - so the broader and more consistent those light emitters, the fewer hot spots and glints you'll be fighting. So bring lots of stands and cross poles and bolts of "duv" so you can mask stuff that the camera angle is reflecting off the car body that you don't want to see.

Good space. Have fun with this!

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Todd Terry
Re: Shooting Automobiles
on Jan 29, 2013 at 7:15:34 pm

Thanks Bill...

Yeah it's a fun space. Challenging, but fun.

I can't fly a big actual softbox (nor do I have one), but I can easily fly a 10x10 or bigger (maybe two lashed together) over the car (pretty easy to rig in there)... and was thinking a couple of other 10x10s on the ground in other places for reflection sources... either backlit silks, or front-lit white solid grifs. I probably can't do much more than that... my available inventory of really big frames and solids will run out by then, and I have to use what I have.

It will definitely take some experimenting... unfortunately I will only have about a half day to set up and tweak before we have to pull trigger... then shooting constantly for the next two and a half days.

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com



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Rick Wise
Re: Shooting Automobiles
on Jan 29, 2013 at 7:26:56 pm

Fabric? Like a large long bolt of white muslin pulled tight at each end? Two frames together will probably show the frame lines. It is possible that you won't see those lines in reflection, but it is also possible you will.... A half day will be tight, jammed....

Possibly a bolt of mus plus two-4 frames.... The overhead needs to be larger than the car by quite a bit, as well as any side reflections. The higher up it is, the larger it needs to be.

Rick Wise
Cinematographer
San Francisco Bay Area
http://www.RickWiseDP.com


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Rick Wise
Re: Shooting Automobiles
on Jan 29, 2013 at 7:14:54 pm

Todd, just saw your post. I've shot a few cars for glamor. The first rule to remember is every car is a giant curved mirror. So you are right about having very, very large lighting surfaces. You are trying to get smooth highlights that slide along the curves. There are special lights made just for this purpose, but clearly not available to you.

I think I'd fly the biggest white/bleached muslin I could find just above the top of the camera frame at its widest. Then given the height of that room I'd find a lighting unit I can fly way above the muslin to given even, spotless illumination of the muslin.

An alternative, possibly: rent some "chicken coops" (cheap); bottom them with 1/2 grid cloth, and line them up over the car per the above. Someone might have to make a trip to your now distant supplier....

Then I'd probably add another giant white surface (possibly a series of 4x12 foamcores) to put a reflection into the side panels. Or, possibly, light up the wood those panels "see."

You may have to take down and restring those christmas lights as they are likely to show up as white dots all over the sheet metal. Otherwise, the wooden structure itself should prove helpful.

If the windows are far enough in the background, they will just be blown out highlights that probably will look cool on your C300.

From the angle in the location photo, make sure all clients and gear are to the left where they can't show up as tiny reflections later. So many tears....

Do take pictures and let us know how it all works! Knowing you, the results will be fabulous.

Rick Wise
Cinematographer
San Francisco Bay Area
http://www.RickWiseDP.com


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Todd Terry
Re: Shooting Automobiles
on Jan 29, 2013 at 7:28:50 pm

Thanks Rick...

Yeah good idea, I think I'll just run get some extra full sheets of foamcore to keep as extra sources and use them as needed... as I think my real frames/solids will be exhausted pretty quickly in the setup. As for insturments all all the other assorted gak I have to use what I have... no time nor budget for the trek to Nashville to get anything else. Darn them, they just moved.

Yes as I mentioned in my first post, Job 1 will be striking those Chrismas lights. They would actually look good as practicals if this was a night shoot, but in the daylight they just look awful and are in the way to boot.

I was thinking blown-own windows too... I know you've shot C300 as well, so glad to hear you think that will work. My sample shot above is a still from the C300, but with only available light of course.

By the way, the opposite view is gigantic solid glass doors (big enough to drive a train through, x3)...



That's actually a pretty cool view, but I've thinking it might just be TOO much glass... I mean, there's blown out, and then there's BLOWN OUT.

I'm not sure what my camera blocking will be, just haven't decided yet...

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com



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Mark Suszko
Re: Shooting Automobiles
on Jan 29, 2013 at 8:28:49 pm

Can you wet the floor down between takes?


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Todd Terry
Re: Shooting Automobiles
on Jan 29, 2013 at 8:50:16 pm

While that would be über-cool, I seriously doubt they would let us... nor would it be wildly safe/practical.

Parts of the floor are fairly slick/polished concrete and would likely be fairly reflective on their own. The other sections are where the train tracks used to be but have been removed and filled in... that concrete finish is not as smooth/reflective.

Great thinking, but I believe in this case a fire hose or water truck is best left for exteriors...ha.

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com



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Mark Suszko
Re: Shooting Automobiles
on Jan 29, 2013 at 10:29:49 pm

Well I had been thinking more along the lines of a bucket and mop/ squeegee broom, but whatever:-)


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Dennis Size
Re: Shooting Automobiles
on Jan 30, 2013 at 1:28:56 am

Everyone has had great advice, now you're off and running Todd.
One note about bouncing light. My preference in lighting cars has always been to use the reflections. Consequently I usually use lekos with large breakups in them -- shooting through the silks. The silk spreads the light over the car .... but the reflections the car windows "sees" appear to be clouds. The same effect is achieved lighting through muslin with your HMI's.
You might have problems with only a 10'x10' silk. As was pointed out, you need to have a surface bigger than the car itself. Normally I rent muslin cyc drops 30' x 30' or larger -- and light through them.
I'll hang muslin over the car (like a ceiling) and hang them vertically on both sides of the car.
When spotted, the HMI's also create a "cloud" in the reflection.

I don't know how long your shoot will take ... but the wall of windows in the space is great. Why not use THAT source for daytime ... and light up the columns and walls for night if you run late. The space could provide the opportunity to accomplish day and night looks.

Lighting under the car is another great gimmick I believe someone has pointed out.
I usually use a few Kino Flo 8'-0" Mega Singles under the car.
You should also use a few Kinos (perhaps your 4 x 4's)inside the car.
Laying on them on the front and back seats will help relieve the dark depressing looking car interior -- especially if the car has tinted windows.

Have fun with it.
DS



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Todd Terry
Re: Shooting Automobiles
on Jan 30, 2013 at 3:57:41 am

Good tips all...

Doubt I can fly something as big as 30x30 (wow that's big), but will do what I can.

Actually yeah I'd love to do a night shoot there... in fact I kinda rather it would ALL be night, I think that'd be a better look to be able to light all the cool wood and brick with interesting spashes... maybe hit the trees outside the windows with some strong uplighting. Sadly, it's not meant to be though... no budget for overnight shoots AND all the footage has to match well and reasonably intercut. Gotta work fast too, and not just in the setup... depending on our casting (which is still ongoing), it looks likely that we will have out-of-town talent that we can fly in for only a limited time.

SO much thanks to all... Mark, Bill, Rick, Dennis... mostly for re-affirming my general plot (I never know if I'm going off on a crazy tangent) and for a couple of cool new ideas I hadn't thought of.

You guys rock....

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com



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Todd Terry
Re: Shooting Automobiles - One HMI question
on Jan 31, 2013 at 3:31:22 pm

Again guys, thanks for the invaluable advice.

I have one more question about HMIs... I've used them forever but it occurs to me that I don't have any experience with this particualar thing...

Looks to me that the easiest way to rig an instrument for the big top over-the-car silk would be to go up in the rafters or high on one of those huge posts and attach a junior wall hanger or floor plate, and use my instrument to shoot down onto the silk.

That'd keep me from having to hide a gigantic stand or other rigging to keep it out of the shot. That should be easy breezy...

BUT...

I've heard (is this anecdotal?) that you get some HMI performance issues when aiming the instruments at too far of angle out of horizontal. Is this true?

In this case I have both 1200w PARs and fresnels to choose from. With a fresnel, straight down would position the globe horizontally to the floor, of course... whereas with a PAR that would bascially point the globe straight down, butt end of the globe up. I'm sure the final positioning wouldn't be truly straight down... but kinda. (all the instruments I've got have the single-ended Osram globes, none of them are the old-style double-ended)

Is this info true? Does that affect performance? Or longevity? The last thing I want to do in a shoot that's already short on both time and money is waste either one of those by having to replace globes... at $300+ a pop.

Or instead of a silk I could use a white solid I guess, and light it from the floor. Sort of the same situation there, the instrument is just pointing up instead of down... although the angle might not be as sharp.

Wisdom appreciated.

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com



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john sharaf
Re: Shooting Automobiles - One HMI question
on Jan 31, 2013 at 4:10:39 pm

Hi Todd,

Horizontal globe better than vertical globe; promotes longer globe life and potential damage to socket from excess heat. Remember that the heat will rise into whatever is above it.

Depending on the ambiance it might not even be necessary to light the white, especially if it is very large. It'd suggest you try to source a
large white silk parachute.

JS



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Todd Terry
Re: Shooting Automobiles - One HMI question
on Jan 31, 2013 at 4:21:33 pm

Thanks John... I'll use a fresnel then, if needed.

Come to think of it, a fresnel pointing straight down puts the globe in the same exact position as the globe in a PAR pointing horizontially (although some rising heat would be trapped by the mirror and housing). I'm not sure why I didn't realize that before... it's early and my brain is still foggy.

I might even be imagining the fact that up or down vertical HMIs were troublesome for some reason or another... but I swear I can remember hearing that from a couple of people, though not quite clearly enough to remember who said that and under what circumstances.

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com



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Rick Wise
Re: Shooting Automobiles - One HMI question
on Jan 31, 2013 at 6:11:27 pm

To my knowledge, all larger Fresnel and par lights are not meant to burn either straight down or straight up. An open-faced 2K is as large as I'd go.

A thought: rig a shiny board or a large parabolic mirror in the rafters, angled so that when you hit it from the ground it bounces back to fill the silk. Avoids straight up or down.

Rick Wise
Cinematographer
San Francisco Bay Area
http://www.RickWiseDP.com


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Todd Terry
Re: Shooting Automobiles - One HMI question
on Jan 31, 2013 at 6:21:27 pm

[Rick Wise] "...a large parabolic mirror in the rafters"


Well they did build the Hubble Space Telescope here in my town 25 years ago. I'll call and see if they have a spare.

:)


But yeah I thought I'd heard you weren't supposed to burn single-end HMI globes in awkward positions... but wasn't sure of that.

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com



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Rick Wise
Re: Shooting Automobiles - One HMI question
on Jan 31, 2013 at 6:32:24 pm

Try the hardware store for security mirrors.

Rick Wise
Cinematographer
San Francisco Bay Area
http://www.RickWiseDP.com


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Rick Wise
Re: Shooting Automobiles - One HMI question
on Jan 31, 2013 at 6:37:10 pm

Harry C. Box states on p. 203 of the Set Technician's Lighting Handbook, 4th edition, that "Most Fresnel and par fidtures that use single-ended globes have a good range of tilt. Lights under 4K can generally be pointed straight up or down. Fixtures 4K and over are generally limited to 75º up or down from horizontal. Double-ended HMI lamps generally are assigned a more restrictive range of up/down tilt and also have restrictions on how much they can be operated tilted sideways -- usually plus or minus 15 degrees left and right.

Rick Wise
Cinematographer
San Francisco Bay Area
http://www.RickWiseDP.com


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Todd Terry
Re: Shooting Automobiles - One HMI question
on Jan 31, 2013 at 6:43:46 pm

Thanks Rick, great info.

Hmmm... I wonder why double-ended globes are more restricted. I don't have any double-ended instruments, but isn't the globe in those horizontal? If so, doesn't seem like it would matter how much the head was tilted up or down, the globe itself is still horizontal. Hmmm. Interesting.

A moot point about that for me though... I haven't seen a double-ended in years.

Sounds like with my 1200's though they could point straight down. Fortunately though they are all hot re-strike, so probably best to kill them when I can, just to be on the safe side.

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com



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Bill Davis
Re: Shooting Automobiles - One HMI question
on Feb 1, 2013 at 7:46:08 am

Hey Todd,

I've got either 2 or maybe 3 10' pure white round classic parachutes in stuff bags somewhere on my storage shelves.

Since you aren't fighting wind, if you think they'd do you any good and you just want some additional translucent white material (with the shroud lines still in place for rigging) on set "just in case" I'd be happy to send them out to you 2nd day.

Just let me know.

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Todd Terry
Re: Shooting Automobiles - One HMI question
on Feb 1, 2013 at 3:28:51 pm

Thank you Bill.... that's a super generous offer!

I'll contact you off forum...

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com



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Scott Sheriff
Re: Shooting Automobiles
on Feb 16, 2013 at 8:17:23 pm

I used to work at a place that had a studio you could drive a car in. We mostly used a surplus round white parachute hung from the grid for a butterfly and top lit only, with an occasional small light on a stand if we needed a specular highlight in a specific spot.
We rented the studio out to a DP from a big ad agency and he brought in a commercially made butterfly set-up and it looked the same as what we did.
I think the only place the butterfly has the advantage is outdoors, or if you're in the biz of selling, or renting them.
As others have said, the secret is to have it be bigger than the object your shooting, like a giant light tent.

Scott Sheriff
SST Digital Media
Multi-Camera Director, VFX and Post Production

The Affordable Camera Dolly is your just right solution!


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair


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Todd Terry
Re: Shooting Automobiles
on Feb 16, 2013 at 10:52:49 pm

Well the shoot actually wrapped on late Thursday, I guess it went pretty well although yup it sure turned out to be a challenging environment.

We flew a 12x12 over the vechicles, had it on pulleys so we could adjust it as needed. It was going to be tough (and potentially neck-breaking) to put a silk in the frame and light it from above... so we put a white 12x solid in it and hit it up from ground level with two 1200w HMIs. 4x8 bounces were down on the deck level, lit by Kinos. One Kino IN the car. Couple of 575w HMIs high and rear to backlight the scene. Actor was lit very simply since there was a lot of ambient light. He got one Diva as a side/key, and a Switronix Torch LED on a long strut (just a 10' piece of conduit) as a back/hair light. Worked decent enough.

We shot eight commercials in two and a half days. I'd much rather shoot one commercial in about three days, but that's what we had to do. Even one more day would have made things a lot more comfortable, but the principal actor we had brought in had to fly back out in order to make the start of another feature film he's in that began the next day.

I'll try to post some shots before long.

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com



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David Speace
Re: Shooting Automobiles
on Feb 20, 2013 at 9:11:24 pm

This is what I would do... forget about trying to wrap light and reflectors around the cars, but instead go with images that reflect and highlight the setting itself... this old train engine workshop (photos that you have provided look tremendous as a setting) and any car that would be sitting there would look tremendous to me... kind of like a total contrast of 21st century and 19th century! So what I would do is take all the hmi's that you have and put them outside and blow the artificial daylight through the existing windows (assuming that this is on the ground floor), then I would use as much fog as you could generate making sure that the fog is fairly well diffused in the space where the cars are sitting. Put the camera on a jib or dolly and create some nice moves so that the space is as much a part of the image as the cars...wide angle lenses, seeing the reflections of the camera moves on the car surfaces, crew in silhouette, etc. I think that you will have some really interesting and unexpected looking imagery. Maybe this is what they mean when they say... thinking outside of the box! I would love to do a shoot like this!

Dave Speace
Producer/Director/DP
DZP Video

Windows 7, 64 Bit, i7 8 Core, 16Gb Ram, GeForce 4800


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Todd Terry
Re: Shooting Automobiles
on Feb 20, 2013 at 11:48:33 pm

Thanks to everyone who gave great advice.

What we ended up doing was pretty conventional, since we had very little time to set up, and we shot eight different commercials (with eight different automobiles) over the course of two and a half days. We had to keep it simple.

12x12 with a white solid overhead, lit by 1200w HMIs, more HMIs as side and back lighting (all of them are out of frame in the pics below), a few Kinos here and there (and usually one in the car), a Diva as key light on the talent, and a Switronix Torch LED as the backlight. We just got the Torch... it arrived the morning of the shoot. I needed something daylight, battery powered, and lightweight enough to put on a 10' strut. It's a GREAT little instrument, highly recommended...





The end result was far from beautiful, and far from perfect... but got us by in this shoot which should have been a couple of weeks' worth of work, but was crammed into half a week...





Again, thanks to all for your invaluable advice. Maybe next time we'll have the time (and budget) to really do it right.

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com



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Rick Wise
Re: Shooting Automobiles
on Feb 21, 2013 at 12:10:44 am

Maybe next time we'll have the time (and budget) to really do it right.


Ah, you are ever the dreamer, Todd... and I so understand and share those desires. But it looks like you made pretty good lemonade out of assorted lemons. And next time, even if the budget's not there, you will be even better equipped to handle the gig. Hat's off to you.

Rick

Rick Wise
Cinematographer
San Francisco Bay Area
http://www.RickWiseDP.com


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Mark Suszko
Re: Shooting Automobiles
on Feb 21, 2013 at 12:15:10 am

Great art is never finished, just abandoned at some point.

For what you had to work with, It really pops. The spokesmodel is so sharp he could almost have been a chromakey.


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Todd Terry
Re: Shooting Automobiles
on Feb 21, 2013 at 3:06:50 am

Thanks guys, and as I said, appreciate the wisdom of all you guys so much more learned than me.

And I can't wait to tell our talent Tim Ross (who considers himself quite the serious ACT-tor Man... which, actually, he is) that Mark called him our "spokesmodel." Priceless... that will make me smile for quite a while.

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com



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Bill Davis
Re: Shooting Automobiles
on Feb 22, 2013 at 4:13:34 am

You did great.

Next year, just tell them you want one of these...

(Audi built a itsy bitsy softbox for CES last week to make their cars looked really, really pretty!)

I'm sure it was pretty cheap to do.



Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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David Speace
Re: Shooting Automobiles
on Feb 21, 2013 at 2:26:44 pm

The pictures look great! Would like to see the windows a little more in focus and possibly see that the back wall is made of red bricks!

Dave Speace
Producer/Director/DP
DZP Video

Windows 7, 64 Bit, i7 8 Core, 16Gb Ram, GeForce 4800


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