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Shoot/Edit 24p or 30p for delivery in 60i?

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Ryan Dundas
Shoot/Edit 24p or 30p for delivery in 60i?
on May 4, 2017 at 6:05:26 pm

I am an AE for a production company that recently switched to Avid from Final Cut Pro. We mostly do reality TV. For the past few years we have been shooting and editing in 24p, as well as delivering a 24p file. I'm guessing the network would use a Teranex or something to convert our file into 60i for broadcast?
Now we are preparing to start a project with a new network, and they want us to deliver the files XDCAM at 60i as an .MXF OP-1a file. The boss still wants to shoot and edit in 24p. I am wondering what my options are to convert our files for delivery to 60i using Avid? We do not have a Teranex or anything fancy to do the conversion.
I recommended shooting and editing in 29.97 instead to avoid having to convert from 23.98 to 29.97. Is this the best solution?
I have done this same conversion in the past with Final Cut projects and had poor results. I would export a 24p quicktime file and use the frame controls in compressor to convert it to 60i, but the pulldown would always create blended frames that look really bad. Or if there is a lot of motion it creates artifacts.
Our online editor suggested that if we edit in 24p that we could deliver it on tape which is another option with this network. That way the conversion to 60i would be done by the AJA card. But all of us would like to avoid that old technology.
If anybody has any tips on a workflow to edit in Avid at 24p then deliver files at 60i, that would be very helpful.
Thanks


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Shane Ross
Re: Shoot/Edit 24p or 30p for delivery in 60i?
on May 4, 2017 at 7:59:37 pm

Well, my suggestion is NOT tape, but something similar. Shoot and edit 23.98, but then output either to another computer or to an AJA KiPro Plus or similar as 29.97...60i. This will create a digital file, and add the proper pulldown, just like tape.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Ryan Dundas
Re: Shoot/Edit 24p or 30p for delivery in 60i?
on May 4, 2017 at 8:52:43 pm

Hey Shane thanks for the info. We definitely want to avoid going to tape as well.
We considered buying a Teranex to handle the conversion to 60i, but if we can avoid the issue by working in 29.97 we will probably go that route.
Could you be a little more specific about what you mean by output to another computer? Do you mean send the video signal from the avid timeline out of an AJA card via SDI to another computer with an AJA card then capture it like tape?
We don't have an AJA recorder but we have some Atomos Blade and Flame recorders that I believe will do the pulldown and record in 60i. I've never tried feeding them a signal from the NLE on my computer.
It's already enough of a pain to time out the show in 29.97 drop frame when we are working in 23.98 non drop. It would be easier for me to switch to working in 30p, but if we find a good workflow we will stick to 24p.


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Shane Ross
Re: Shoot/Edit 24p or 30p for delivery in 60i?
on May 5, 2017 at 4:15:10 am

[Ryan Dundas] "Could you be a little more specific about what you mean by output to another computer? Do you mean send the video signal from the avid timeline out of an AJA card via SDI to another computer with an AJA card then capture it like tape?"

Yes. I have two machines, one with an AJA card and one with BMD, and I output from one and capture in the other.

[Ryan Dundas] "We don't have an AJA recorder but we have some Atomos Blade and Flame recorders that I believe will do the pulldown and record in 60i. I've never tried feeding them a signal from the NLE on my computer."

That should work...worth testing before you commit.

[Ryan Dundas] "It's already enough of a pain to time out the show in 29.97 drop frame when we are working in 23.98 non drop."

Actually, this is easy. Just set your sequence timecode to display 30i. Then it'll be timed just fine. I do this all the time.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Job ter Burg
Re: Shoot/Edit 24p or 30p for delivery in 60i?
on May 5, 2017 at 9:45:01 am

Are we talking 24.000p or 23.976p. Makes a difference.


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Ryan Dundas
Re: Shoot/Edit 24p or 30p for delivery in 60i?
on May 5, 2017 at 2:31:10 pm

Yea sorry i keep saying 24p but what I mean is 23.98 progressive

Are there any other options for software or something that can do the pulldown to create the 60i file from 23.98?

It seems like it is common to edit in 23.98 and deliver in 60i. How does everybody else do it? Is everybody using an AJA recorder or Teranex or some other kind of external converter?


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Glenn Sakatch
Re: Shoot/Edit 24p or 30p for delivery in 60i?
on May 5, 2017 at 3:38:20 pm

just cut in a 23.98 project, then make a 59.94 project and open the bin containing the 23.98 project.
When you go to double click the project it will warn you that it needs to convert your sequence first. Say OK.

Go through and check any timeramps, as you may want to adjust the motion settings.

Be aware your timing in 23.98 has to be determined based on how it will convert to 59.94.

Glenn


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Ryan Dundas
Re: Shoot/Edit 24p or 30p for delivery in 60i?
on May 5, 2017 at 7:35:58 pm

Ok cool. We use a ton of time ramps in our edits so that may be an issue.

Also I am wondering if there are even any advantages to shooting in 23.98 if we have to deliver in 60i. My boss likes to shoot in 23.98 for the film look, but after we convert to 60i (29.97) that film look will be lost right? So is there even any difference in the look of the final product in 60i if we shoot in 23.98p vs 29.97p?


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Glenn Sakatch
Re: Shoot/Edit 24p or 30p for delivery in 60i?
on May 5, 2017 at 9:18:27 pm

Your look will be fine.

Timeramps aren't necessarily an issue, you just have to make sure Avid is choosing the best option for interpretation when it does the conversion, before you do your final export (or transcodes)

As for 23.976... i would never say shoot 29.97 instead. You have so much more versatility if you have a 23.98 Universal master on hand.

Thats how I usually work for long form. Edit 23.976, master 23.976, then use that master to create 59.94 masters or PAL masters. Michael Phillips has a great blog about importing a 23.976 master into a PAL project, and getting a beautiful Pal Master out of the deal.

23.976 to 59.94 is pretty straight forward, and the audio files from 23.976, will stay in sync for the Broadcast version.

One of my clients has insisted on 23.976 masters for years to work with any future distribution requests.

Glenn


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