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Fred Jean
Baselight?
on Jul 12, 2015 at 9:46:35 am
Last Edited By Fred Jean on Jul 12, 2015 at 9:57:55 am

Hi,
No dedicated Baselight forum in the cow? Don't see it.

I'd like to have some advices from Avid-baselight users.

The short story: I new Baselight but as many folks, color in Resolve (that I never end to like) and completly ignored Baselight for Avid.
Yesterday, following a thread in lift gamma gain, Baselight caught my attention and started to watch tutos...
I really really loved what I saw!
However a few things remain oscur for me.

Question 1: is Baselight for Avid a closed system? I'm currently using 2 NLEs according to the type of projects. MC and Lightworks. So would I be able to color also the LW editorials without having to send the edit to Avid? Understanding that the roundtrippin logically would not be integrated.
In other words, can I open Baselight Avid edition without opening Avid?

Question2: they talk about a difference between the Baselight edition and the full color app but the site is not
Very explicit (or me not seeing it). Is Baselight edition a bumbed out app? I don't get it.

Last question: I'm runnin an "old" MC 6.5. Will Baselight
Works or do I need a newer MC ?

Thanks for your help.

https://vimeo.com/fredjeangasc


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Michael Phillips
Re: Baselight?
on Jul 12, 2015 at 2:11:21 pm

Baselight for Avid is an AVX plug-in that gets applied to the clips in an Avid sequence. That sequence could be edited within Avid or conformed in Avid from another system. Depending on system it is coming from, that could be a hassle or not. As such, you have to open Media Composer, conform sequence, apply Baselight as an effect, and work from there. It is not a standalone USD $1,000 system.

As with all AVX plug-ins, you an export an AAF and the AVX plug-ins and its parameters are part of the file. The receiving system needs to either have the equivalent plug-in or know how to parse the AVX information.

For example, I can use a Boris AVX effect in Media Composer, and send my AAF to Resolve that has the same Boris effect as OFX and will apply me settings. If there is no Boris OFX installed, it is a blob that cannot be changed.

Baselight behaves the same way. There is great interchange between their dedicated Baselight stations and the AAF/AVX Baselight plug-in usng their BLG file. You can also import/export their own interchange color metadata files from within the plug-in itself.

In your scenario, you would have to have the same Baselight effect available (I don't think there is one) and export an AAF from Lightworks into Media Composer as a conform process (back to camera originals? What4ever codec Lightworks is working in?) Apply the Baselight plug-in to the sequence, and have full control of the color as you see in the tutorials. From there, getting back to Lightworks might be an issue - I have never done that or know whether that is a need or not.

The other version is a plug-in for VFX editors that can be used as a node - but again, not a standalone system. That would be their dedicated color correction Baselight.


Michael


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Fred Jean
Re: Baselight?
on Jul 12, 2015 at 2:31:54 pm

Great to see you again Michael.

Thanks for the answer. It is now very clear.

LW handles perfectly Dnx but as you point, not being a standalone
App it would be a complete nightmare.
I asked the guys at Editshare (and I'll be heavy until they get fed-up) to get to an agreement
For a partnership with Baselight because LW is virgen in terms
Of third-party CC, unlike Abobe that has Speedgrade. It would be
Fantastic because I think Baselight reminds me the "old school"
Interface and I really like it.

Cheers from (extremely hot) Madrid.

https://vimeo.com/fredjeangasc


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Michael Phillips
Re: Baselight?
on Jul 12, 2015 at 2:40:23 pm

You're welcome. What will be interesting to watch is the success of Resolve 12 as an ever-growing editing system, in addition to its color correcting capabilities. Not only vis-a-vis Lightworks as a free/low cost editor, but against other NLE systems as well - depending on program type, environment, etc. For Media Composer it will be between the new reduced functionality, "easier to use" free version called Media Composer|First and soon to be released Resolve 12.


Michael


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Fred Jean
Re: Baselight?
on Jul 12, 2015 at 2:58:19 pm
Last Edited By Fred Jean on Jul 12, 2015 at 3:09:33 pm

Curious...in the reacent past, I've been claiming for
An all-in-one like Resolve 12. When Avid killed DS,
I was bloody pissed. Smoke never appeared to me
Intuitive and its editing caps where painfull.
Now Resolve will release 12 and to be honest, with
A bit more distance, I'm not that hot anymore.

BM tries to make us think that the editing will be at
The level of Avid or LW? Mmmm...I think many folks
Will be disapointed. I see Resolve very strong for stuff
Like docus, or with the wanabee crowd that can access
A free all-in-one, but will it appeal to the cine crowd? I
Doubt it. Both Avid and Editshare are strong in media
Management and if you have ever edited on LW and then
Being on Resolve will remain extremely painfull.
I still think that softwares for specialists are the best option.
But 80% of the world now thinks different. They want the swiss knife.

LW on rental is very afforbable but if you look carefully, not that
Low cost, just a bit cheaper than a Scratch app on rental and
In film, the editors who cut on LW feature films have the editshare
Support behind wich is more than 400 bucks a month plus their
Media management wich jumps to ks numbers at the speed of light.

Same story with Avid. Many complains on "the Avid way" but in
The end, on complex projects, those platforms shine. resolve
Might Resolve 90% of the hassles, but it's those 10%.
Why paying Arri when we can afford super cheap imagery elsewere,
Yes, but...you know what I mean.

https://vimeo.com/fredjeangasc


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Michael Phillips
Re: Baselight?
on Jul 12, 2015 at 3:35:30 pm

I don't think Blackmagic has ever made claims that it would be as good or better than MC or Lightworks. They are working at their pace adding more editing functionality with each release (same as Adobe). Appealing to the cine crowd is great, but it certainly is not the biggest market out there. Studio level productions, multi-editor situations, shared storage editing seats is not their target market and they are more than willing to let Avid have that and work on better interchange and conform selling their I/O (see the whole Avid DNxIO scenario). One question I have is the pace at which Resolve adds editing functionality compared to the pace that Avid adds color correction?

Most of my work is with features and workflow design, etc. I also produce and edit. The last short I did could easily have been done in Resolve, or PPro, and not Avid. On one hand, as an old MC user, I like the comfort level of knowing how things work - the second nature of the tool - but I am not the market Avid is looking for. Avid needs to engage new users and grow their seats to drive revenue - especially with the Avid Marketplace being a stated core piece of revenue in that space.

From a developer perspective... I created an AMA plug-in that allows Media Composer to access all the metadata from an MP3, MP4, AICC and BWF with ID3 tags. Now the editors has lots of info on which to search, sort such as lyrics, BPM, rights holder, etc. At the end, it's a drag and drop to an applet that generates a rights management starter report for which songs were used where and for how long. Since it is AMA, it is Avid only and I can say that I am addressing the smallest seat count of all NLE's. It has also been impossible to get Avid to list this plug-in with all the other AMA plug-ins listed on their website and they keep referencing this Avid Marketplace that will happen at some point. My guess is it will be available with the Avid Media Composer|Free release sometime "later this year". So needless to say, it becomes a hobby and not a career. :)

From a market perspective, the "studio cine" crowd is theirs to lose as they have owned that space since the introduction of a true 24p editing system in August of 1992. They are still in a strong position in that market. But that market buys MC, Pro Tools, and ISIS, and not much of the other big ticket items such as Interplay, services, etc. as seen in broadcast market. But growing their seat count has been more challenging. Thus the creation and release of Avid Media Composer|Free - to get non-Avid users aware of the solution. I taught a Media Composer class at a Community College (18-20 year-olds) that have already had some experience with anything but Avid - and let me tell you, it is a eye-opener to see how unintuitive parts of MC are to that new user base. We are used to it as we are spoon fed the changes over time.

So yes, as a user in the "studio cine space", I use Media Composer. Other indies in the "cine space, like my nephew, who directed a 6K RED feature? He is on Premiere Pro. As a public company, they need more than that to grow, or figure out what more can they sell into that existing studio cine space.


Michael


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Fred Jean
Re: Baselight?
on Jul 12, 2015 at 4:31:52 pm
Last Edited By Fred Jean on Jul 12, 2015 at 4:44:53 pm

You're absutly right Michael. Nice post.
Probably, BM will force others to shake their bottoms and rethink-redesign their products and strategies. That can not be bad for all.

About Avid, yeah...I've been away from PP during almost a year (sort of hollydays) and when back,
Guess what? I was almost a complete beginner on Avid. It took me one entire day to be operative again. MC can be intuitive when we know it, but
It is so easy to forget that in the end I think MC is not intuitive at all. It's not like learning to swim once for awhile. So I imagine the new generation on it...

Here in spain, the cine industry, or I should say what's left from the cine industry, like in France, is
Highly law protected. Syndicates, no mess with extra hours, absolutly no multitask people (what? An editor who color??) bla bla...and yes, this is like another planet.

Even for instance if you go to a dedicating colorist forum, Resolve is curiously not necessarly the emperor (the most loved by color artists) but it is true that we are going to multitask people and softwares will have to respond to this reality.
Resolve 12 certainly does respond to this.

But what puzzles me the most is this: why Resolve understood something that others did not? I mean,
The tendency is there now for quite some time. As you point, if pne can edit comfortably in Resolve, why would it uses then NLEs with the roudtripping involved? In the end,
80% of the workd will cut and color in Resolve, you'll see.
Who are the dudes in the marketong deps of the other brands? Really, this was quite easy to see it comming.

https://vimeo.com/fredjeangasc


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Michael Phillips
Re: Baselight?
on Jul 12, 2015 at 4:46:14 pm

Schedule and specialization drives a lot of the decisions. In studio level productions, you're not making revenue until its released. So multiple talents working together which is why change management is so key to these workflows allowing different teams to work. So in the end, multitasking is a function of delivery needs.

In the indie space, time is their value, so doing as much as they can, for as little pay as they can is the goal.

Michael


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Fred Jean
Re: Baselight?
on Jul 13, 2015 at 2:52:09 am
Last Edited By Fred Jean on Jul 13, 2015 at 3:34:16 am

By the way Michael.
Is your AMA plug-in available somewhere? It sounds really interesting.

Keeping the conversation,
I see the Cow and here, there are many highly technical people.
Often, I stay in admiration when I see those pros who
Know not only the core of their primary tools but technical
Knowledge that belong more to engineering.
And then I realise this:

Years ago, I assisted during 2 years one of the top fashion photographer.
I was introduced to him by a friend of mine, art photographer,
We connected well and he asked me to come to some shootings,
And step by step I became to be part of the team. We did
All the world class top models, Gisele, Bar etc...
What caught my atention, is that the guy knew nothing on tech except
What he uses. All is knowledge was aimed to the psychological
Relation with the models, the mundaine-business relationships and all related
With the image itself. But he was absolutly useless when it came to
All the what I call "cable-and-microship-jargon".
His assistants knew more of softwares, hardwares and cableries.
Same with the very few famous editors I met. They do not know
What Aja could be. They would think you're talking of Ajax a product to clean bathrooms...
Those guys just step away from technicity like a nun with the anti-christ, and in fact it is because
They can.

But people like me, and probably most of the people
Here, it's the wild west because we constantly have to deal
With gazillions of technicities instead of being centered in
The task itself. I don't think Thelma Shoonmaker is spending 2
Minutes in internet wondering if Aja or not Aja for her next workstation.
She probably don't even know about Resolve. I don't
Know her personaly and maybe I'm wrong and she likes
Cables and microships, but the big fishes rarely are frequenting internet nor are interested in "the media does not relink". I saw that over
And over again in the very high-end, the "artist elite" if I may say. But those are like the 3% billionaires.
In general, we have to become knowledgable in many aspects, solve daily problems in a chain that is unstable by nature,
Wich is very time consuming.
For us, webs like the Cow are our salvation, we have our own free support.
The workflow as it is, is over complicated. Too many systems, too many
Of everything. It's the wwest.
So people will jump into Resolve 12 because it simplifies, and will forgive if the editor is not hassle-free.
I think the current mentality-needs, claims more for rock-solid
Color-conform capabilities than a strong NLE limited in those aspects.
Did Avid made a mistake with DS? As you point, they aren't probably not interested in having this part of the market, but they will need revenus.

Same with Lightworks. I'm trying to put pressure on Editshare
At the level I can reach in order to incitate them to get a partnership
With a color app. Would it be Baselight or Resolve. They already did
A good step integrating Fusion and it's great indeed. But the color
Is still missing. Now...Editshare could survive without LW, their
Core business is in media management and they even provide it
For Avid platforms. So maybe what does Blackmagic is not of interest
For those companies.

https://vimeo.com/fredjeangasc


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Michael Phillips
Re: Baselight?
on Jul 13, 2015 at 3:08:52 am

Sure - the website is: http://www.mus-id.com/

There is a demo video and a trial version.

What you are referring to is the specialization part of the process. Editors at that level are hired to put a story together. Their talent is finding those moments, the timing, the pacing, to create those moments that "work". Some editors are more technically oriented and will get into using more of the toolset all with the goal of creating the moment.

In other productions, due to budget and other variables, editors are not only the storyteller, but the finisher, deliverer, etc. Such is the business we work in.


Michael


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Fred Jean
Re: Baselight?
on Jul 13, 2015 at 3:46:07 am

Thanks for the link Michael.

Exactly, a part from the biggest productions where people
Are hired exclusively for their talents in one area, the other
Productions are the way you described. And those smaller
Prods and indies are the vast majority.
I ignore in terms of numbers what that represents.
3% fraction of an elite market represents let's say 40% of global revenues?
I claim my ignorance.
It would be interesting to know the relation.

https://vimeo.com/fredjeangasc


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Michael Phillips
Re: Baselight?
on Jul 13, 2015 at 12:45:15 pm

The actual breakdown of revenue is hard to tell, and it also depends on your definition of "elite'. Broadcast enterprise with companies like ABC, CBS, BBC, Discovery, and all the equivalents around the world make up the majority of the revenue. These are huge investments across the board from servers, to storage, to asset management, graphics, services and support that Avid provides.

In the studio level film & television world, at least here in the US - the rental and support services is done by a third party. They buy Avid gear and they provide the systems, monitors, desks, rooms, etc. The Media Composer and storage cost is a component of the overall post costs in those productions. If you look at any feature film or television budget, the NLE (or Avid rental) is a line item with "x" number of weeks next to it. Same for storage. Rental houses would keep renting version 6 for many years, then version 7, etc. as once it is paid for, everything else is profit to them.

To some extent, I saw the new "purchsase plans" as a means of extracting more revenue from Media Composer seats as it changed the way Media Composer was sold and supported starting with v8. For those who owned perpetual licenses they had till Dec 31, 2015 to get on the new "support" plan or have to pay for a whole new license. This was a bit more than just a suggested nudge, but one with a revenue impact for Avid, as well as an expense decision for all these owners who did not upgrade every release or chose not to be on support plans. Now, you're break even point was 4 years without upgrading. So many people just pay the $299 whether they feel they need to upgrade or not but may not install it till they're ready (for example, PhraseFind and ScriptSync license owners).


Michael


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Michael Phillips
Re: Baselight?
on Jul 13, 2015 at 1:17:10 pm

My comments refer to Media Composer and not Pro Tools. Pro Tools has the benefit of still being the number one DAW. Although there is growing competition, its seat count is higher than the competitors. I believe a marketplace for Pro Tools is the right thing to do for a variety of reasons - Pro Tools is a platform for third party development (MC is not). It has always fostered a very active third party plug-in development community. The plug-in architecture defined is better than other architectures out there, but is still open to using other formats (Avid uses AVX only for VFX).

The target market for Pro Tools are musicians. Post is secondary, as we can see that over 20 years of ownership, you can finally co-install MC and Pro Tools (if done in the proper order), but not have them running at the same time.

If Media Composer opened up to OFX as well as AVX for VFX plug-ins, it would allow users to have far more choices of plug-ins at different price points. As it stands now, developers needs to code and test AVX for only one market (the smallest number of seats) which show up as the same plug-in costing more for MC, than for other hosts as MC cannot take advnatage of economies of scale available with other hosts types. No other manufactures has adopted AVX as their architecture.


Michael


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Fred Jean
Re: Baselight?
on Jul 13, 2015 at 2:51:10 pm
Last Edited By Fred Jean on Jul 13, 2015 at 2:56:05 pm

Thanks for those infos Michael.

Same here, it works on rental basically.

Sorry for my english, yes by "elite" I was talking as the
Very same you described.
The problem is that my english is not that good. I'm french,
And so to comunicate I often use "shorcuts" and vague
Expressions because I lack vocabulary.
That's why I tend to edit my posts to try to rewritte better
When I realise how clumpsy they are.
My english writting style, very direct and often politically
Incorrect reflects that lack of "grey scale" because for a
Foreigner it's easier to use "street" kind of lenguage or
Over simplify.

Cheers.

https://vimeo.com/fredjeangasc


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Michael Phillips
Re: Baselight?
on Jul 13, 2015 at 2:56:05 pm

Pas un problem du tout! J'avais une mère française et j'ai habité a Nice pendant ma jeunesse entre les ages de 10 et 17 ans...


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Fred Jean
Re: Baselight?
on Jul 13, 2015 at 2:58:14 pm

Oui c'est vrai! Je me souviens que tu me l'avais dit il y a quelques
Années dans ce forum.

https://vimeo.com/fredjeangasc


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