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patching 3/4" tape to Avid for capture

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Pieter Viljoen
patching 3/4" tape to Avid for capture
on Aug 20, 2013 at 4:50:34 pm

I'm in that generation of assistants/editors that's coming up post tape... I need to capture a lot of 3/4" and was wondering if there's a basic guide someone can point me to? The capturing process itself I've studied from two different books but the patching I'm not entirely sure where to start, because I may need to go looking for cables that we don't have anymore.

This will be into Avid 6.5 on a 2012 Mac Pro.

Thanks guys


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Shane Ross
Re: patching 3/4" tape to Avid for capture
on Aug 20, 2013 at 5:28:42 pm

And what capture card do you have for this? Mojo? Nitris? Third party?

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Pieter Viljoen
Re: patching 3/4" tape to Avid for capture
on Aug 20, 2013 at 5:32:14 pm

We've got a Mojo


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Shane Ross
Re: patching 3/4" tape to Avid for capture
on Aug 20, 2013 at 5:34:48 pm

Is it a MOJO DX? older one? The 3/4" Decks have composite and component outputs. Newer MOJO cards only have SDI...so there's no compatibility there. But the OLDER Mojo's that did have this connectivity...don't work with MC6. Does yours have Component inputs? Heck, does the DECK? Some don't.

You'll also need a deck control cable...not sure if the umatic has RS-422, or if you'll need an adapter. Shoot, why is the deck here up in the attic?

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Pieter Viljoen
Re: patching 3/4" tape to Avid for capture
on Aug 20, 2013 at 5:36:56 pm

I am not at that office right now but it must be at least 8 years old and there are legacy versions of MC if I can't do it in 6. I will find out and get back to you. Thanks for your help


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Shane Ross
Re: patching 3/4" tape to Avid for capture
on Aug 20, 2013 at 5:37:55 pm

And I'll try to get to that deck to see what it has.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Bill Stephan
Re: patching 3/4" tape to Avid for capture
on Aug 20, 2013 at 10:44:10 pm

No component outs on 3/4" VTRs. Those are strictly a composite-only format.

Bill Stephan
Senior Editor/DVD Author
USA Studios
New York City


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Mark Raudonis
Re: patching 3/4" tape to Avid for capture
on Aug 21, 2013 at 3:16:57 am

[Bill Stephan] "Those are strictly a composite-only format."

Not exactly true, sir!

Most 3/4" decks had what was called a "dub" cable. Here's an example of one:
http://www.davidriddle.com/sony7pin.html

This output separated the "Y/C" signals... creating essentially a component signal. NOT exactly
what we now know as a"component" recording, but close.

So... if you want the best possible signal from a 3/4 " deck, use the dub cable output through a TBC (Time Base Correctors for you young uns) . Some TBC's actually had "dub" input connectors.

Good luck!



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Bob Zelin
Re: patching 3/4" tape to Avid for capture
on Aug 21, 2013 at 11:56:30 am

Grandpa here - this is what you will need.

There are two versions of AVID Mojo - the original one with RCA and S-Video connectors, and the newer Mojo DX with SDI connectors.

Your 3/4" VTR may be one of two varities. The "pro" models, which DO NOT have a Time Base Corrector built into them, and the "broadcast" models that DO have a TBC built into them. Let me assure you that you will not have success (even with the right cables) if you do not have a TBC or Frame Sync on your 3/4" VTR.

The Sony VO-900, 920 and 950 had built in Time Base correctors (with an option board in them). The older Sony VO 5000, 5020, 5800, 5850 did not have a TBC, and will require a FRAME SYNCHRONIZER (like a DataVideo or Hotronics). The original Broadcast 3/4" VTR's from Sony (the BVU-800, 820) required external Time Base correctors.

Your 3/4" VTR (without a TBC) is producing a heterodyned output - the direct output has an unstable sync signal, and it's composite output is too unstable to get recorded by an AVID Mojo (or any third party card with a composite video input). The VTR must have a Time Base Corrector or a Frame Sync, and the output of the TBC or Frame Sync is what goes into the composite video input of the Mojo, not the 3/4" VTR.

SO - you are saying "well, I don't have a TBC or Frame Sync, and I don't have a BVU900, 920 or 950 with internal TBC, so let me see what happens when I just plug it into the Mojo" - this is what will happen. You will get a very shakey, or scrambled signal, because the Mojo input circuit can't lock to the unstable sync signal on the composite video signal. Just like a VHS machine.

IF you don't have the right toys, you can't play.

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
maxavid@cfl.rr.com


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Neil Hurwitz
Re: patching 3/4" tape to Avid for capture
on Aug 21, 2013 at 4:31:25 pm

Grandpa Bob is correct
No TBC No Joy
I beleive DPS had a unit that did just this
Un TBC'd analog composite to TBC'd SDI
Hunt around on ebay and you should be able to buy one for under
200.00 If not call MCCOM they got a house full of old
analog gear just waiting for a situation like yours.
From
Another Old GrandPa
who used to torture Bob with 5800's and Quadra 950's


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Pieter Viljoen
Re: patching 3/4" tape to Avid for capture
on Aug 21, 2013 at 5:17:57 pm

thank you, all of you. I try to be humble about whatever knowledge I have but there's nothing like asking a question like this to remind you just how humble you should be.

I'll report back with what hardware I have.


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Pieter Viljoen
Re: patching 3/4" tape to Avid for capture
on Aug 21, 2013 at 10:21:04 pm

This is a V0 9850

I can get picture to the monitor, now I have to figure out if this has a tbc and if the mojo still works. Any guidance?

Thank you


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Shane Ross
Re: patching 3/4" tape to Avid for capture
on Aug 21, 2013 at 10:21:37 pm

Which MOJO? That's a BIG question.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Pieter Viljoen
Re: patching 3/4" tape to Avid for capture
on Aug 21, 2013 at 10:56:33 pm

Avid mojo 7020-20000-xx


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Shane Ross
Re: patching 3/4" tape to Avid for capture
on Aug 21, 2013 at 11:00:35 pm

Perfect! That has composite inputs, and deck control. But you need to use an early version of Avid...5.5 or earlier.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Pieter Viljoen
Re: patching 3/4" tape to Avid for capture
on Aug 21, 2013 at 11:25:17 pm

Thank you so much Shane. Now I need to figure out how to use this thing.


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Pat Horridge
Re: patching 3/4" tape to Avid for capture
on Aug 22, 2013 at 11:27:38 am

Some things to consider:
The VO9850 is a commercial deck not a broadcast deck so has less tape protection. So if the deck isn't in good nick it could easily shred or damage the tapes.

What condition are the tapes? Age and mould are big problems and can bugger the video heads as well as destroy the remaining tape content.

I don't think the 9850 has a TBC so you may have issues with horizontal jitter and unstable captures (with composite captures in Avid you can select a more tolerant input flywheel.

The 9850 has proper Y/C out which can go into the analogue Mojo and that will look slightly better.

9 pin control should work but the Timecode card is an option on the 9850 machine (and the tapes may or may not have TC anyway.

Make sure the tracking control is adjusted for optimum playback for each tape. Have the deck top panel open and the PCB board lifted away do you can monitor for tape damage and issues.

Good luck

Pat Horridge
Technical Director, Trainer, Avid Certified Instructor
VET
Production Editing Digital Media Design DVD
T +44 (0)20 7505 4701 | F +44 (0)20 7505 4800 | E pat@vet.co.uk |
http://www.vet.co.uk | Lux Building 2-4 Hoxton Square London N1 6US


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John Pale
Re: patching 3/4" tape to Avid for capture
on Aug 22, 2013 at 1:40:57 pm

Is this an offline/online workflow?

If you edit at low resolution and will need to recapture at high resolution you will have issues...these tapes may not have timecode and may be too fragile for repeated cueing. Not even getting into how inaccurate Umatic is even if it has timecode.

If you want to offline, I'd strongly suggest dubbing to a more robust format...Digibeta for SD or HDCAM, if you desire upconverting. Capture your dubs. You basically have no chance of a successful Upres later, if you don't do this.


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Pat Horridge
Re: patching 3/4" tape to Avid for capture
on Aug 22, 2013 at 2:06:58 pm

We consider 3/4 to be a vulnerable format now (as are a few others) so VET handles it a certain way.
Tapes are inspected physically.
Only played once and captured at the highest quality possible.
We always assume only one hit at playback will be possible.
VTRs are cleaned and serviced before each job and monitored by an engineer as the job progresses.
VTRs are adjusted on the fly to optimise playback for that tape. This often includes internal guide and tape path tweaks.

We don't consider 3/4 inch to be a suitable format for offline then conform.

Pat Horridge
Technical Director, Trainer, Avid Certified Instructor
VET
Production Editing Digital Media Design DVD
T +44 (0)20 7505 4701 | F +44 (0)20 7505 4800 | E pat@vet.co.uk |
http://www.vet.co.uk | Lux Building 2-4 Hoxton Square London N1 6US


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Pieter Viljoen
Re: patching 3/4" tape to Avid for capture
on Aug 22, 2013 at 5:35:59 pm

This is strictly to digitize. Whatever we had in Digibeta or D2 or 1 Inch, we obviously have digitized it for archive.

This is for a national editorial company (spots and music videos) which at one time at 7 offices, so there's a lot of material and the flashier, award winning stuff they want to keep for posterity. Unfortunately the only record in existence for a lot of this stuff is on 3/4. We're talking in the 1000s of spots/music videos. I'm wondering if having this done by a third party might be a better, cheaper solution. Does our deck not have the TBC?

Sorry to lack this knowledge, I just have no tape experience. All I've ever done was find it, ship it to another facility, then overcut from the digital source.


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Pat Horridge
Re: patching 3/4" tape to Avid for capture
on Aug 22, 2013 at 5:41:35 pm

There may have been an option for a TBC card on the VO9850 but I seem to remember them having external TBC's

It really depends on what condition the playback deck and tapes are in. And you want to get the best setup for quality if you are doing that much work.

No point doing it all and it looks poor.

Pat Horridge
Technical Director, Trainer, Avid Certified Instructor
VET
Production Editing Digital Media Design DVD
T +44 (0)20 7505 4701 | F +44 (0)20 7505 4800 | E pat@vet.co.uk |
http://www.vet.co.uk | Lux Building 2-4 Hoxton Square London N1 6US


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Pieter Viljoen
Re: patching 3/4" tape to Avid for capture
on Aug 23, 2013 at 12:36:20 am

We have an external TBC, actually. Now trying to find all the cables to patch it properly and capture in avid 3 because all our other avids are 6 or later.


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David Gray
Re: patching 3/4" tape to Avid for capture
on Jan 9, 2016 at 4:19:21 am

Maybe this info can help! We have a VO9850, with a BKU-704/705 that reads SMPTE time code, that is connected to a AJA Kona LHe Plus internal card, which comes with a snake cable. The card's RF in is connected to a Blackmagicdesign Mini Converter Sync Generator. We're using it with FCP 07. The 'sync in' from the deck is going to the Sync Generator 'RF out' and the 'RF in' from the snake is going to the sync generator. On the deck, the 'mode select' is switched to 'TBC' and the Line Select is set to 'Line'. The 'audio in and audio out', from the deck, are connected to the snake. The 'Monitor video' from the deck is connected to the TV monitor and the 'Monitor audio' from the deck to connected to our Mackie mixer. Pieter, hopes this helps!

Everything is working fine, except for one thing...during capture it keeps stopping at 1:24 minutes! Which leads me to believe there is an internal timecode set in the deck. Does anyone know how to change this?


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David Gray
Re: patching 3/4" tape to Avid for capture
on Jan 9, 2016 at 4:22:48 am

Maybe this info can help! We have a VO9850, with a BKU-704/705 that reads SMPTE time code, that is connected to a AJA Kona LHe Plus internal card, which comes with a snake cable. The card's RF in is connected to a Blackmagicdesign Mini Converter Sync Generator. We're using it with FCP 07. The 'sync in' from the deck is going to the Sync Generator 'RF out' and the 'RF in' from the snake is going to the sync generator. On the deck, the 'mode select' is switched to 'TBC' and the Line Select is set to 'Line'. The 'audio in and audio out', from the deck, are connected to the snake. The 'Monitor video' from the deck is connected to the TV monitor and the 'Monitor audio' from the deck to connected to our Mackie mixer. Pieter, hopes this helps!

Everything is working fine, except for one thing...during capture it keeps stopping at 1:24 minutes! Which leads me to believe there is an internal timecode set in the deck. Does anyone know how to change this?


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