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23.98 Center Duration Wrong!!!!

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Charles Jones
23.98 Center Duration Wrong!!!!
on Feb 24, 2013 at 3:33:12 am

Im new to MC, Im an FCP convert using MC 6.5 on mac. I often get footage at 24FPS and in FCP i would edit entirely in 23.98 with the footage without any problems. But Media composer I set my project up to be 1080 at 23.976 and if I check clip duration using the center duration counter on the composer window its often 2 or more frames off. Now in most beginning tutorials NO ONE ever talks about the FILM button when you first open a new project 35m 4 perf and 8 perf. I believe one guy in a tutorial said that its only if you are going back to film so its no need to select it. But this is the only way I can get the center duration to be accurate but I don't want this to cause problems down the road because of an unknown bug in MC 6. Is this a correct work flow and WHY. PLease all you AVID Guru's out there help me understand this. is the Film check box in the NEW project set up window the proper way to work with 24 fps footage in a 23.98 timeline?

Cj


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Job ter Burg
Re: 23.98 Center Duration Wrong!!!!
on Feb 24, 2013 at 11:09:02 am

Hi, there's an important thing to know: Center Duration is based on whatever TC you are tracking in the top line above the Record monitor.

For 23.976p projects, timecode is, and should normally be TC24 (there is no 24DF timecode standard in the world today). This means that the timecode will not match real "earth time".

A workaround for that is to switch your Master timecode from TC1 or TC24 to 30DF, since Avid allows you to track most any form of timecode standard. This would mean you do get an actual earth time center duration.

Reading your issue with being a few frames off, you might have the Master TC above the record monitor set to something else. Switching it to TC24 should at least give you a center duration that matches that TC counter.


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Job ter Burg
Re: 23.98 Center Duration Wrong!!!!
on Feb 24, 2013 at 11:12:09 am

P.S.: You mention getting 24fps footage, then working in 23.976p. That sounds wrong, unless your source is actually 23.976fps.
A lot of people west of the Atlantic - including mfg's - seem to have forgotten that there actually is such a thing as 24.000fps acquisition (and post). It's important to acknowledge and state the difference when talking frame rates.
If your footage IS in fact 24.000fps, you would be better off bringing it into a 1080/24.000p project.


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Job ter Burg
Re: 23.98 Center Duration Wrong!!!!
on Feb 24, 2013 at 11:18:48 am

O, another thing: there's no harm in activating the film settings on your project. All it does is open up things like KeyKode tracking. I'm always in a film project, even though 80% of what I get is digitally shot now, and is no longer being printed at the end.

There is one difference, and that is that film projects may not allow you to trim subclips beyond their logged length (as this would possibly cause Keykode mismatches), whereas 'video' projects are more forgiving in those cases. Never ran into that being a problem, though.


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Charles Jones
Re: 23.98 Center Duration Wrong!!!!
on Feb 24, 2013 at 11:26:35 am

Thank you SOOO much!!! That helps allot but brings up yet another question which is by far the dumbest one you will ever hear. So since you suggest creating a 1080 24 frame project my question is, would there be a problem if my final delivery is always 23.98 and 29.97? What would the steps be to make the PROPER delivery to these frame rates. Because Im starting to believe in my FCP days Ive been going about things all wrong. It seems being New to avid its very easy to screw things up so PLease forgive My ignorance.


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Job ter Burg
Re: 23.98 Center Duration Wrong!!!!
on Feb 24, 2013 at 12:57:36 pm

First make sure your sources are actually 24.000fps or 23.976fps. Both happen, and a lot of semi-pro camcorder manufactureres shamelessly label something 24p when it is in fact 23.976p.

If your deliverables will need to be 23.976, you may choose to edit in 23.976p. But IF your sources are 24.000 then this means you would have to slow down your picture from 24.000fps to 23.976fps, and you would need to perform a similar slowdown to your sound. This method is frequently used in the 60Hz world. Picture is then shot at 24.000fps, sound recorded at 48048Hz, picture is slowed down to 23.976 (in telecine or on an HD deck), sound is slowed down by slowing it down to 48000 samples/second.

Or you work in 1080/24.000p, then perform such a slowdown on your final product.

Since there are quite a few ways to go about any of this, it would be relevant to here what your source footage is, how you are bringing it in, if it's been recorder double system or not.


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Charles Jones
Re: 23.98 Center Duration Wrong!!!!
on Feb 24, 2013 at 6:28:35 pm

I work Primarily in VFX and Animation. So everything is done in 24 by the time I get it. In my FCP days which is very recent since the Edit is KING of the frames I would just create my project in 23.98 deliver the animatic that way and when I get my 24 footage it just cut in and all durations just matched up since I started the durations in 23.98. then the Audio would be Mixed and composed at those exact frames also 23.98 so sound was never an issue. And even when there is LIVE action footage since shots are not too long in commercials no sound issues ever a raised. so I assumed this could be the same workflow but when the Center duration issue popped up I assumed all went out the window. I just assumed I would work in a 23.98 project cut in the 24 footage and keep it that way. But if I work in a 24 project I would just export my final at 23.98 and hope Avid does on the export what I think it does (Convert the FPS) Now since the exact same spot has to be delivered at 29.97 also I also assumed coming into AVID completely new that I would set up a separate Project at 29.97 and import it and let the import convert it. am I on the right track?


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Job ter Burg
Re: 23.98 Center Duration Wrong!!!!
on Feb 24, 2013 at 9:47:58 pm

Again, 24.000fps footage in a 23.976 project means motion adapters will be applied - usually not what you want. Neither FCP nor Avid slow down or speed up when importing/exporting (although Avid lets you do this using console commands), but rather will interpolate/frameskip.
You should not be mixing 23.976 and 24.000 workflows. A frame should be and remain a single frame, no matter the playback speed (which only matters for sound, in a way).
If you need 29.97 delivery masters from 23.976 sources, you could just open ypur finished 23.976 sequence in a 59.94i project. If you're starting with 24.000 you could do the same, but it would not result in a proper 3:2 pulldown. If that is required, you first slow down to 23.976, then add pulldown.


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Job ter Burg
Re: 23.98 Center Duration Wrong!!!!
on Feb 24, 2013 at 11:21:37 am

To elaborate: MC will allow you to use 23.976 sources in a 24.000 project, but MC will then auto-apply motion adapters to correct for the speed difference (so the 23.976 frames per second will be divided over 24 frames per second, so there will be some frame skipping/interpolation). Generally not the right way to work.


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Charles Jones
Re: 23.98 Center Duration Wrong!!!!
on Feb 25, 2013 at 7:49:27 pm

Thank you so MUCH!! You're A ROCKING GURU!!!


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