FORUMS: list search recent posts

How do you set real-time 2:3 pulldown insertion on Kona output in Symphony?

COW Forums : Avid Media Composer

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Marco Solorio
How do you set real-time 2:3 pulldown insertion on Kona output in Symphony?
on May 11, 2012 at 10:52:51 pm

Okay, we're finally getting our main edit suite fully switched over to Lion and Symphony 6, and of course, finding something interesting things along the way.

In FCP7, your timeline could be 24p, but you can set your video output to 60i. The Kona card will automatically add the 2:3 pulldown insertion so the 24p playback can work on 60i monitors.

I can't seem to find the same thing in Symphony or the the AJA Control Panel. The control panel only mirrors what the Avid project sequence is set to (24p).

Our PVM monitor can play back the 24p output natively, but our LED flatscreen cannot, since it unfortunately doesn't support native 24p. Been okay in the interim, but I really need to get this working like we did in FCP. Any ideas? Searching Google and Cow hasn't produced anything (except 2:3 removal, not insertion).

Thanks!

Marco Solorio | CreativeCow Host | OneRiver Media | ORM Blog | Facebook | Twitter | Media Batch


Return to posts index

Shane Ross
Re: How do you set real-time 2:3 pulldown insertion on Kona output in Symphony?
on May 11, 2012 at 11:03:09 pm

[Marco Solorio] "I can't seem to find the same thing in Symphony or the the AJA Control Panel. The control panel only mirrors what the Avid project sequence is set to (24p)."

Right. You can't do that with the third party IO and Avid. Avid locks the card to the project settings. You cannot monitor 23.98 as 29.97 with Avid MC or Symphony.

[Marco Solorio] " I really need to get this working like we did in FCP. Any ideas?"

Nope. This is the drawback with using third party IO. Avid allows it for monitoring, but you don't get the full array of options that you do with the Avid hardware. They didn't unlock everything. They still want to sell their hardware too.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


Return to posts index

Marco Solorio
Re: How do you set real-time 2:3 pulldown insertion on Kona output in Symphony?
on May 11, 2012 at 11:19:20 pm

Well this is a blow. I know Avid kept some of the features for themselves (like LTC output and such) to be used with their own hardware (which ironically is AJA hardware, LOL), but I had no idea they didn't allow the Kona cards to do something they've always already been able to do. Last thing I want to do is buy something like an Evertz box to do this. Hmmmm, might just replace the LED flatscreen with one that supports native 24p. Thanks Shane. I appreciate the feedback.

Marco Solorio | CreativeCow Host | OneRiver Media | ORM Blog | Facebook | Twitter | Media Batch


Return to posts index


Marco Solorio
Re: How do you set real-time 2:3 pulldown insertion on Kona output in Symphony?
on May 12, 2012 at 12:06:50 am

Interestingly enough however, it looks like the real-time down convert to SD actually does insert 2:3 pulldown. Not that it helps my situation any since everything is HD these days, but interesting nonetheless. Looks like we have another LED flatscreen here at the facility that does play native 24p, so we'll probably just do a swap. Still, a pain, but at least we can make this work in the end.

Marco Solorio | CreativeCow Host | OneRiver Media | ORM Blog | Facebook | Twitter | Media Batch


Return to posts index

Shane Ross
Re: How do you set real-time 2:3 pulldown insertion on Kona output in Symphony?
on May 12, 2012 at 12:14:19 am

Yeah...downconvert works. It's the frame rate conversion just in HD out to a monitor that is locked.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


Return to posts index

Marco Solorio
Re: How do you set real-time 2:3 pulldown insertion on Kona output in Symphony?
on May 12, 2012 at 1:13:47 am

Yeah, bummer. I'd go Nitris hardware, but the Kona hardware concurrently allows me to still work in legacy FCP7 edits, and After Effects projects. It looks like Nitris is still kind of a desert island in that regard for AE, unless I missed something.

Marco Solorio | CreativeCow Host | OneRiver Media | ORM Blog | Facebook | Twitter | Media Batch


Return to posts index


Shane Ross
Re: How do you set real-time 2:3 pulldown insertion on Kona output in Symphony?
on May 12, 2012 at 1:24:58 am

Nitris doesn't work for AE, as far as I know.

I love my Kona as it works for FCP 7(that I still use), Avid Symphony, and Adobe PPro CS6. And After Effects. It helps to have a monitor that can monitor just about anything (FSI 2461...Sony PVM-14L5).

It captures video fine...upconverts SD to HD. Avid allows me to Mix and match, so no frame rate conversion needed. And I output to tape elsewhere, as I don't own decks.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


Return to posts index

Marco Solorio
Re: How do you set real-time 2:3 pulldown insertion on Kona output in Symphony?
on May 12, 2012 at 1:41:34 am

Yeah, and after I submitted my last post, I realized that I'm guessing the Nitris hardware also doesn't/wont support Smoke 2013 like my Kona can. Aside from wanting real-time 2:3 pulldown insertion, I'd really like to have LTC output as well, both of which are obviously not possible with Kona. But those are minimal compared to everything else I get with my Kona hardware.

I just don't understand why Avid doesn't support Nitris with other software hosts, especially since it's really just AJA hardware anyway. Truly desert island syndrome.

But alas, I'll have to swap out my client 55" LED monitor in the edit suite (luckily my PVM-20L5 still works!). I thought the 55" LED in my conference room would work to replace it (their lit says it supports 24p) but after running a long SDI cable from the machine room and into it (with an AJA HI5 HD-SDI to HDMI adapter) from the Kona output from a 24p timeline, it didn't understand the native 24p source and gave a blank screen (despite what their lit says, I think they're saying it does 24p from a 60i source with RT Inverse telecine... misleading).

So I'm back to square one. Either I get a new 55" (or larger) client display that supports true 24p (while weeding through misleading product lit), or I get a conversion box that does real-time 2:3 pulldown insertion. I think the AJA FS1 does it, but that's $3500 and that's tough to swallow when only used for just one function (especially since it existed for us in FCP for years!). Doing the research now on potential black boxes. Oh the fun on a Friday night!

Cheers!

Marco Solorio | CreativeCow Host | OneRiver Media | ORM Blog | Facebook | Twitter | Media Batch


Return to posts index

Job ter Burg
Re: How do you set real-time 2:3 pulldown insertion on Kona output in Symphony?
on May 12, 2012 at 11:58:01 am

HDMI monitors generally only accept 23.976P or 24P over HDMI, not PsF. Since you mention running an SDI cable, then converting to HDMI, check if your SDI output is PsF or P. On my Decklink and on my Nitris DX, I can choose between them. Sending 24P to the SDI->HDMI converter works for me.


Return to posts index


Marco Solorio
Re: How do you set real-time 2:3 pulldown insertion on Kona output in Symphony?
on May 12, 2012 at 5:59:52 pm

Hi Job, thanks for the reply. I'm actually not able to change anything on the output. If I create a 1080p24 sequence, I do not have an option to change it to either 24p or 24PfS. My guess is that since you have Nitris DX in the mix of things, that it allows you to unlock output to both it and your Decklink, but this is just an assumption on my part.

Where are you able to change it from 24p to 24PfS? In Avid or in your Decklink control panel? For me in my AJA control panel, there is nowhere to change it (grayed out pulldown). The AJA control panel does have a selectable secondary output (for HD-SDI output #2) that I can down-convert to, but I don't think it can cross-convert in the same HD resolution (will check when I go back to the studio).

I did email John Abt at AJA last night about the FS1 and he mentioned the AJA UDC might work instead (small converter with FS1 technology but at a much lower cost) to perform the RT pulldown. Street price looks around $700 (much better than $3500 for the FS1 doing the same task!). He's confirming with his peeps to see if what I'm asking to do will work.

Thanks!

Marco Solorio | CreativeCow Host | OneRiver Media | ORM Blog | Facebook | Twitter | Media Batch


Return to posts index

Job ter Burg
Re: How do you set real-time 2:3 pulldown insertion on Kona output in Symphony?
on May 12, 2012 at 11:33:39 pm

The Decklink and the Nitris DX live on two different systems. On the Nitris DX machine, under Video Output Tool, I can choose P or PsF. On the Decklink machine, under Tools, there is a Hardware Settings tool, that lets me adjust some settings for the Decklink card.

I seem to recall that with the AJA Io Express, there were certain settings that I could change when using AJA's Machina application.


Return to posts index

Marco Solorio
Re: How do you set real-time 2:3 pulldown insertion on Kona output in Symphony?
on May 13, 2012 at 9:22:16 am

The same location you're describing to change the hardware settings tool (under the "Tools" menu) is the same for me changing the AJA Kona settings. Unfortunately, I cannot change the main output to either P or PsF (the second output might, but I wont know until Monday).

In the interim, I've found some interesting info. There's a chance my AJA Hi5 SDI to HDMI converter might actually be the problem in the link. I was under the impression that it supported both 24P and 24PsF. It apparently does not (only 24P and 23.976P, but not 23.976PsF). However, the competing Blackmagic SDI to HDMI converter does support 23.976PsF (but not 24P and 23.976P). Weird. At any rate, I've ordered the BMD converter and will be in my hands on Tuesday. For $295, I'm willing to take the risk to see if this will solve the 24p problem for the client display.

I'd actually prefer this method anyway since I'd stay native 24p monitoring and wouldn't have to add RT pulldown insertion to the output. Crossing my fingers. Apparently the BMD converter is working on many "24p capable" client displays in this exact type of scenario with MC/Symphony, so I'm hopeful.

Oh the joy.

Marco Solorio | CreativeCow Host | OneRiver Media | ORM Blog | Facebook | Twitter | Media Batch


Return to posts index



Marco Solorio
Re: How do you set real-time 2:3 pulldown insertion on Kona output in Symphony?
on May 15, 2012 at 11:24:14 pm

Alright, I went to the root of the problem, got rid of the real-time 2:3 pulldown requirement and figured out why my client LED display wouldn't understand native 24p video. Turned out that the AJA Hi5 was the culprit because for some reason, AJA did not implement 23.976pfs into its design. So weird. so as mentioned in my last post, I bought the BMD converter and my intuition was right. My 55" LED client display now understands native 24p because the BMD converter can use all three 24p variants. All my monitors now function under all formats I throw at them. "Welcome to 2004."

I decided to make a quick blog post about it:

http://www.onerivermedia.com/blog/?p=581

Cheers!

Marco Solorio | CreativeCow Host | OneRiver Media | ORM Blog | Facebook | Twitter | Media Batch


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]