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Frederic Lumiere
PhraseFind ignores 'Search: Current Bin"
on Mar 12, 2012 at 5:04:04 pm

Does PhraseFind search in the whole project regardless of what is selected in the search dropbox? I selected 'Current Bin' but it gives me results for the whole project.

Also, it would be awesome if phrase find could only search a sequence... to know where someone says something in a sequence.

Frederic Lumiere
Producer
Lumiere Media


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Michael Phillips
Re: PhraseFind ignores 'Search: Current Bin"
on Mar 12, 2012 at 9:47:43 pm

PhraseFind always searches its entire database and does not yet search sequences. You can do a bin filtering after the fact as an additional step, but I agree it would be nice to have the filter at the front end of the search process.

Michael

Michael Phillips


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Frederic Lumiere
Re: PhraseFind ignores 'Search: Current Bin"
on Mar 13, 2012 at 3:29:02 am

Thanks Michael,

Actually I just discovered that the filter (not the Search Current Bin) does work at the front end of the search. Since my naming convention is pretty good, I can search for the name of the character in addition to the PhraseFind search.

Do you know if there is a way to output a sequence as a 'self contained' DnxHd clip without re-transcoding? I think I'd like to output the 3 hour interviews as one clip for finding purposes...

Frederic Lumiere
Producer
Lumiere Media


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Michael Phillips
Re: PhraseFind ignores 'Search: Current Bin"
on Mar 13, 2012 at 1:15:53 pm

Which filter are you referring to? I'm pretty sure the initial search is an either/or - PhraseFind or bin based metadata. But maybe something has changed, I will need to look again. I haven't had occasion lately to use it. Search has always been PhraseFind for all results, then use the additional filters to drill down to metadata in a specific column within a bin and then sort by bin, etc.

As far as making sequences into sources, there are a couple ways, but I would have to ask from what your sequences were made? I am going to assume you synced in the timeline? If so, take each event (if sequence is made of multiple events) and create sub-sequences where each sequences only contains V1 and audio tracks and are of all the same duration. Highlight these sequences then select AutoSync from the Bin Menu and they will turn into subclips.

Or... export your rendered sequence (if needed) as a QT reference, and bring it back into your project as a new source. AMA linked files will get indexed by PhraseFind but if sequence consisted of several clips, all bets are off for source metadata, EDLs, etc. if used as source in a new sequence. All you will have if filename of QT and whatever timecode the original sequence was at.


Michael

Michael Phillips


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Frederic Lumiere
Re: PhraseFind ignores 'Search: Current Bin"
on Mar 13, 2012 at 4:05:33 pm

[Michael Phillips] "Which filter are you referring to?

Any really. I select Name in the 'Column' drop box - enter a specific name and the results will return only hits with that name. Things probably have changed...

[Michael Phillips] "As far as making sequences into sources...export your rendered sequence (if needed) as a QT reference, and bring it back into your project as a new source....all bets are off for source metadata, EDLs, etc. if used as source in a new sequence. All you will have if filename of QT and whatever timecode the original sequence was at. "

I bring in footage already synced audio-wise with DualEyes, so the sequence is multiple clips comprising the whole interview. All the clips are now DnxHD175 X (the result of transcoding AMA's H.264).

So when I create a QT reference, it exports the audio as AIFF and creates a 1Mb QT Reference file, which looks fine. When I bring it back in MC, it looks like it re-encodes the whole thing rather than fast importing like I would expect since it's already DnxHD 175 X. Is there a way to bring it back without re-encoding?

Thanks for all your help Michael BTW!


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Frederic Lumiere
Re: PhraseFind ignores 'Search: Current Bin"
on Mar 13, 2012 at 5:22:50 pm

I guess doing a video mix down is the way to go then?

Frederic Lumiere
Producer
Lumiere Media


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Michael Phillips
Re: PhraseFind ignores 'Search: Current Bin"
on Mar 13, 2012 at 7:01:57 pm

I don't think I mentioned a video mixdown... that is a third option, but also will loose all links to any metadata if used as source for editing. In order of preference IMHO:

1. Ensure sequence has only one V track (V1) and whatever number of A tracks associated with it. Highlight sequence in bin, select AutoSync and you will now have a source subclip that retains all properties from its sources. You can do this on a duplicate of a sequence as the original sequence will disappear as it becomes a subclip.

2. Export each single event sequence as a QT reference, "Fast Import" or AMA link to it. Only metadata now will be whatever the sequence timecode was and filename of QT (which will be the sequence name)

3. Mixdown. No metadata.


Also, there have been no changes to the "Find" or PhraseFind. Basically you enter a search term, get a set of results, then apply the same search term again and select column of choice to use as a filter. A better approach would be to have the filters up front eliminating the need to re-enter the search term again for those who are well organized. That is what I am referring to. You get the same results, just fewer steps and a bit more intuitive.


Michael

Michael Phillips


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Frederic Lumiere
Re: PhraseFind ignores 'Search: Current Bin"
on Mar 13, 2012 at 7:22:40 pm

1. It won't let me AutoSync because I have more than 1 clip in the sequence. I have dozens of takes for the interview.

2. When I bring back the QT reference I exported of the sequence with dozens of clips, isn't doing "Fast Import" even though the clips were DNxHD.

3. My only solution is Mixdown since it doesn't re-transcode the clips but simply copies the data.

Filtering before I do the PhraseFind search works great for me. I only get results based on the phrase criteria + the filters. But then again, based on the Found & after filtering numbers at the bottom right of the window, it looks like it applied the search to the whole database anyway, even though I don't see all the hits.


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Michael Phillips
Re: PhraseFind ignores 'Search: Current Bin"
on Mar 13, 2012 at 7:29:19 pm

You need to mark each clip in the timeline (Mark Clip) and subclip that out to a bin so each sequence is only one event. From there you will be able to AutoSync as a new subclip source. Should be fairly quick to do. Park in the middle, select tracks, mark clip, option click in middle of record monitor and drag to bin. A new sequence is created.

Michael

Michael Phillips


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Michael Phillips
Re: PhraseFind ignores 'Search: Current Bin"
on Mar 13, 2012 at 8:11:04 pm

Also, I see what you are seeing with PhraseFind, that once a filter has been applied, all subsequent PhraseFind searches will be filtered. I am referring to the first time a search is initiated, that it takes an extra step in re-entering the search term that was initially set in many cases to get to subfiltering stage. For example, If in my BWF metadata I got a character name Abby in the TRK4 column, I can search the word "Abby" and get all instances of the word regardless of column, then I need to re-enter "Abby" again the subfilter and select TRK4 to get just those results rather than being able to apply TRK4 right off the bat.

I also just discovered in testing this, that in the previous example, "Find" won't find "Abby" in TRK4 column on the .sync subclip created regardless of filter or not. Which is not a good thing if I was looking for those clips...

Michael Phillips


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Frederic Lumiere
Re: PhraseFind ignores 'Search: Current Bin"
on Mar 13, 2012 at 8:15:29 pm

I'm a little confused Michael. Are you suggesting that I should subclip each clip and then join them all together?


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Michael Phillips
Re: PhraseFind ignores 'Search: Current Bin"
on Mar 13, 2012 at 8:25:28 pm

Because you used PluralEyes to sync, all your sync media (picture and sound) exist as sequences. In addition to sequences being a bit more painful to edit from (drag into source monitor, rather than double click, etc.), you are finding that PhraseFind does not work on sequences. Now PhraseFind most likely found all the source audio that made up what is now in your sync sequence, but not helpful as you want to edit from the sync picture and sound.

In order to turn a sequence into a new synced source and behave like a source clip (subclip in this case), you need to make sure each sequence contains only one event. This is done by sub-sequencing each span of sync events in the timeline to its own sequence. The AutoSync those sequences to create a new subclip. I can Skype this via share desktop if you want to see how it works.


Michael

Michael Phillips


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Frederic Lumiere
Re: PhraseFind ignores 'Search: Current Bin"
on Mar 13, 2012 at 8:36:44 pm

Gotcha! We've been mis-communicating from the beginning ;)

I don't use PluralEyes to sync my audio but DualEyes, the standalone app for the very reason you described.

So by the time I bring in the H.264 via AMA, all the clips have 2 sometime 3 or 4 audio tracks. I then transcode all the AMA'd H.264 and have DNxHD clips with multitrack audio. I then delete the AMAs.

PhraseFind works perfectly with these.

My issue was that for the interviews. I combine all the clips from that interview (max 10 min each) into a master interview sequence. I wished that PhraseFind gave me hits on the sequence and not the individual clips, therefore I find the following workflow much more workable:

- Sync the sequence with the first timecode of the first clip in that sequence.
- Video & Audio Mixdown the sequence (same codec - no transcode)
- Use Autosync to combine audio and video for that freshly created clip
- Delete all the original DNxHD clips I don't need anymore

Now I have one clip of the interview with tracks of audio I chose to keep, searchable by PhraseFind.

Thanks for your offer to Skype. Very generous of you btw!


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Frederic Lumiere
Re: PhraseFind ignores 'Search: Current Bin"
on Mar 13, 2012 at 8:49:35 pm

This was a great workflow until I discovered that PhraseFind won't index subclips which is what AutoSync creates... Argh...

Any ideas?

Reference:

"PhraseFind indexes all of your bins upon first launch of a project. Each project is indexed separately, and re-indexing only occurs when new master clips are added to a bin."

#a10'>http://avid.custkb.com/avid/app/selfservice/search.jsp?DocId=389887&ssdFilterCommunity15=1408&ssdFilterCommunity10=369&ssdFilter_SearchKeyWord=&Hilite=#a10


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Frederic Lumiere
Re: PhraseFind ignores 'Search: Current Bin"
on Mar 13, 2012 at 8:50:42 pm

Nevermind:

"Will PhraseFind locate audio clips within Subclips or Group Clips?

Yes, PhraseFind does index and return Subclips and Group Clips."

Somehow, it's not searching my new sub clips. Maybe it needs more time. I wish we could monitor the indexing...


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Michael Phillips
Re: PhraseFind ignores 'Search: Current Bin"
on Mar 13, 2012 at 9:17:09 pm

The index is somewhat monitored by the green ball in the FIND window. You will see 1/4 green, 1/2, green, 3/4 green, all green depending on state. PhraseFind will find all instances of clips which is good and bad... In the case of master clips, subclips, .sync clips, group clips, and multigroup clips, all of them will be returned and their is no filter for "clip type" so you have to sort and scroll as needed.

There is a trick to make the the sequence timecode match the source timecode and that is by selecting the source clips and doing "AutoSequence". That will lay all clips into the timeline where source and record timecode match. If shooting time of day, you will have black gaps where there is no material.

Michael Phillips


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Frederic Lumiere
Re: PhraseFind ignores 'Search: Current Bin"
on Mar 14, 2012 at 4:33:33 am

[Michael Phillips] "The index is somewhat monitored by the green ball in the FIND window. You will see 1/4 green, 1/2, green, 3/4 green, all green depending on state. PhraseFind will find all instances of clips which is good and bad... In the case of master clips, subclips, .sync clips, group clips, and multigroup clips, all of them will be returned and their is no filter for "clip type" so you have to sort and scroll as needed. "

Somehow the newly created sub clips by AutoSync aren't being indexed by PhraseFind. I waited 4 hours, still nothing... so I just deleted the PhoneticData folder after shutting down MC and restarted it. I am now monitoring the PhoneticData folder rebuilding '1', one clip at a time - indexing... The ball is still 1/2 green.

Side note: Somehow, the newly created sub clips in Avid MediaFiles appeared in a new '2' folder, so I hope PhraseFind will look at that one too. BTW, why is a '2' folder created sometime?


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Michael Phillips
Re: PhraseFind ignores 'Search: Current Bin"
on Mar 14, 2012 at 11:37:46 am

Subclips are only pointers to the original masterclip/mediafile so only masterclips and render files point to a mediafile in the Avid MediaFiles/MXF/1 (2, 3, 4) directory structure. The reason these folders are numbered is because Media Composer manages the number of files that the OS allows in a single directory automatically creating news ones as the number of files reaches that limit.

This should have no effect on whether the file gets indexed or not by PhraseFind as it will index the entire MXF folder as well as files being referenced/linked via AMA (not in the Avid MediaFiles folder).

Michael Phillips


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Frederic Lumiere
Re: PhraseFind ignores 'Search: Current Bin"
on Mar 14, 2012 at 12:16:28 pm

As I suspected, after monitoring PhraseFind re-indexing the whole project by watching the SearchData/PhoneticData folder, it ignores the '2' folder which is where the new clips created by the Mixdown reside. Could this be a PhraseFind bug?


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Michael Phillips
Re: PhraseFind ignores 'Search: Current Bin"
on Mar 14, 2012 at 12:24:25 pm

Could very well be, I'll test on my system by putting media into a 2 and a 3 folder and see what happens. Seems like this would have come up before if it was a bug - what version of MC are you running and what OS?

Michael Phillips


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Frederic Lumiere
Re: PhraseFind ignores 'Search: Current Bin"
on Mar 14, 2012 at 1:31:07 pm

Running MC 6.01 on 10.7.3


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Frederic Lumiere
Re: PhraseFind ignores 'Search: Current Bin"
on Mar 14, 2012 at 2:12:35 pm

So moving the mxfs created by the AutoSync to the '1' folder didn't force PhraseFind to index them. Somehow, PF is still ignoring them. So when Autosync is done combining a video and audio clip it creates a subclip and trashes the reference to the masters in MC? I say this because the resulting icon looks like a subclip (different from the other master clips). I wonder why PF is ignoring these...

To make sure, I brought a new AMA file in, transcoded it to DNxHD and right away, I did see the new .pat files created by PhraseFind in the PhoneticData folder and the new clip is indexed properly. So PF definitely has a problem indexing MXFs created by MixDown/AutoSync.

Frederic Lumiere
Producer
Lumiere Media


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Frederic Lumiere
Re: PhraseFind ignores 'Search: Current Bin"
on Mar 14, 2012 at 2:50:41 pm

Something's up with these subclips... MC won't let me enter timecode in them to navigate the clip.

Someone else was experiencing a similar issue with group clips:

http://community.avid.com/forums/p/106457/616291.aspx#616291


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Frederic Lumiere
Re: PhraseFind ignores 'Search: Current Bin"
on Mar 14, 2012 at 3:12:30 pm

I also tried to do a new Audio MixDown from the final subclip to see if PhraseFind would index it and when I set an IN & OUT point in the clip and choose to Audio MixDown, I get the error: "Exception: Mark in or Mark Out incorrect. But it lets be place that edit in the sequence if I try...

Frederic Lumiere
Producer
Lumiere Media


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Frederic Lumiere
Re: PhraseFind ignores 'Search: Current Bin"
on Mar 14, 2012 at 3:20:56 pm

[Michael Phillips] "There is a trick to make the the sequence timecode match the source timecode and that is by selecting the source clips and doing "AutoSequence". That will lay all clips into the timeline where source and record timecode match. If shooting time of day, you will have black gaps where there is no material.
"


This is a great trick Michael! Wow - very cool. Somehow when I was resetting the sequence timecode manually it was slipping over time compared to the clip's timecode. I assume because of dup TC, missing, etc.. this trick takes care of all these issues. Very nice! Thanks.


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Michael Phillips
Re: PhraseFind ignores 'Search: Current Bin"
on Mar 14, 2012 at 5:26:33 pm

You're welcome. One of those little known features. That one has been in the product since about 1997 and was designed for audio layback to MOS tape masters when syncing was done in Media Composer but still has value in some file-based workflows.

Anyway, I did look into the audio files being in a folder that is not "1". I tool all my audio from BWF import and moved them to a folder "7". I trashed the search .pat files as it didn't feel a need to re-index. Once that was done, it went through the indexing process. Will a full green index indicator I did a search that just worked yesterday when all the files were in "1".

Nothing was found.

Sounds like a bug to me. I will fire off an email to engineering QA.



Michael

Michael Phillips


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Frederic Lumiere
Re: PhraseFind ignores 'Search: Current Bin"
on Mar 14, 2012 at 6:59:30 pm

Hey Michael,

So I'm going back to what you originally suggested. Make a QT Reference of the sequence rather than doing a MixDown. The main reason being that the audio Mixdown only give me 1 stereo or 1 mono audio track option. Some of the clips have 3 tracks that I want to preserve.

What I need is the equivalent to producing a "self contained" clip with 1 track of video and as many tracks of audio that are present in the sequence.

Could you take me through the steps of getting that done?

Thanks Michael!

Frederic

Frederic Lumiere
Producer
Lumiere Media


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Frederic Lumiere
Re: PhraseFind ignores 'Search: Current Bin"
on Mar 14, 2012 at 8:31:02 pm

Looks like I may have figured out how to make 1 video clip with all audio tracks which combines all the DNxHD takes from an interview and searchable by PhraseFind without re-transcoding the whole thing.

Here's how I did it:

1. Select all the clips from a bin in order and choose Bin/AutoSequence

2. Open that sequence, place an IN and OUT point to select it all and choose Special/Video Mixdown

3. Delete the video track from the sequence and File/Export QuickTime Reference

4. Open the QT in QT pro and save as self-contained

5. Bring the Self-contained audio (multiple tracks) with AMA

6. Transcode the audio AMA to Avid codec

7. Select the new audio clip and the Video Mixdown from the bin and choose Bin/AutoSync

The final subclip has video synced with audio and is searchable by PhraseFind but somehow lost its timecode!

Almost there...

Frederic Lumiere
Producer
Lumiere Media


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Frederic Lumiere
Re: PhraseFind ignores 'Search: Current Bin"
on Mar 15, 2012 at 3:18:46 am

Success! A much simpler way yo accomplish it. Here's the summary:

1. I used AutoSequence to make a sequence with the same timecodes as the clips. Works great! Now I have one sequence of the whole interview.

2. PhraseFind won't index sequences so I Mixeddown the Video and each Audio track individually and used AutoSync to make a subclip of the video and synced audio tracks.

3. I verified that the Mixed down audio tracks were indeed being indexed by PhraseFind in the PhoneticData folder which was encouraging.

The subclip still didn't show in the PhraseFind results when it should've so I moved the subclip to a different bin, saved that bin and it looks like it updated the PhraseFind database and now that subclip shows in the PhraseFind results.

The Video and Audio both have the same TC but I still can't navigate the clip by typing timecode... I'll live with it for now.

Frederic Lumiere
Producer
Lumiere Media


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