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Urgent!! Adding pulldown on output

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fearless
Urgent!! Adding pulldown on output
on Mar 3, 2007 at 7:12:48 am

Now I normally work in PAL and HD at 25fps... however, we have a 1080 project at 23.98 and need to get it out at 29.97 - tomorrow. My understanding always was that the LHe could do it - after all, there's a 24-to-30 Pulldown selector in the Codec menu. But the only output option seems to be 23.98 no matter what I adjust. Then it occurs to me that perhaps it can only add pulldown on capture...?

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!


Peter

Quad G5/NVidia Quadro/Kona LHe/Infortrend RAID/Final Touch HD 2.6.1/FCP 5.1.2/OS X 10.4.8


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fearless
Re: Urgent!! Adding pulldown on output
on Mar 3, 2007 at 7:30:21 am

Umm - I think I might have answered my own question - FireWire output. Working at 25 with an AJ-HD1200A, FireWire is never an option. But for this - hey, I'll try it...

Quad G5/NVidia Quadro/Kona LHe/Infortrend RAID/Final Touch HD 2.6.1/FCP 5.1.2/OS X 10.4.8


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fearless
Re: Urgent!! Adding pulldown on output
on Mar 3, 2007 at 7:40:16 am

Or perhaps not. It's an NTSC thing, not HD, reading the manual... so the question remains...

Quad G5/NVidia Quadro/Kona LHe/Infortrend RAID/Final Touch HD 2.6.1/FCP 5.1.2/OS X 10.4.8


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David Battistella
Re: Urgent!! Adding pulldown on output
on Mar 3, 2007 at 7:28:49 pm

Fearless.

Bad news. With the K2 and LH you can not coss convert the framerates on the fly on output unless you are down converting. I believe that only the K3 will perform the type of Cross coversion you are attempting here.

I do not think that the 1200A or the 1400 can solve the problem for you either as niether of these decks records at 1080 23.98PSF.

David


BTW: this is DVCPRO HD footage not Uncompressed, correct?



Peace and Love :)


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fearless
Re: Urgent!! Adding pulldown on output
on Mar 3, 2007 at 8:04:52 pm

Thanks for the bad news! It's Uncompressed 10-bit.

Quad G5/NVidia Quadro/Kona LHe/Infortrend RAID/Final Touch HD 2.6.1/FCP 5.1.2/OS X 10.4.8


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fearless
Re: Urgent!! Adding pulldown on output
on Mar 3, 2007 at 8:16:26 pm

BTW, this is a little perplexing given that according to this release, AJA's hardware competitor and driver partner BlackMagic has been able to do this on the humble DeckLink since 2005:

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/105/761439?&archive=T
3:2 pulldown on HD output

HD 1080/59.94i output from a HD 1080/23.98p timeline in Final Cut Pro HD in realtime
3:2 pull down is now supported in high definition. All DeckLink HD series cards can now play out HD 1080/23.98p media at HD/59.94i fps. This feature is extremely useful for monitoring purposes. HD monitoring and or preview can be done with a domestic HDTV, cutting costs of monitoring high definition media.

Anyone know if the Multibridge Pro can do it?

Thanks!

Quad G5/NVidia Quadro/Kona LHe/Infortrend RAID/Final Touch HD 2.6.1/FCP 5.1.2/OS X 10.4.8


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walter biscardi
Re: Urgent!! Adding pulldown on output
on Mar 3, 2007 at 8:32:53 pm

[fearless] "BTW, this is a little perplexing given that according to this release, AJA's hardware competitor and driver partner BlackMagic has been able to do this on the humble DeckLink since 2005:"

AJA does do the pulldown, I'm just not sure the LHe can do it. We run the Kona 3's here and do all kinds of frame and size conversions all the time. There's a reason the LHe is cheaper than the Kona 3. It is more limited in its abilities than the 3. This is one reason I always recommend the Kona 3 to anyone going into HD. You're always going to be converting formats once you start in HD and with the Kona 3, you're ready for anything. The only conversion we can't do in house is 1080i/60 to 1080i/50, but other than that, the Kona 3 delivers everything.



Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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fearless
Re: Urgent!! Adding pulldown on output
on Mar 3, 2007 at 9:04:22 pm

Thanks Walter, yes the Kona3 is certainly the more capable card, but we bought the LHe for its analogue I/O capability, which has been very useful. Odd that the Control Panel even includes the conversion setting selection, and the LHe-specific manual describes the Codec Screen settings as below. Yet I can't find a single instance where pulldown is available - since it's only applicable to a 23.98 source and not option, downconversion or otherwise, seems available.

To quote the LHe manual:
24-30 FPS Conversion


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walter biscardi
Re: Urgent!! Adding pulldown on output
on Mar 3, 2007 at 11:31:02 pm

If it's in the manual, then the LHe does do the pulldown. I would suggest you call AJA Tech Support on Monday and have them walk you through it.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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weevie833
Re: Urgent!! Adding pulldown on output
on Mar 4, 2007 at 3:41:57 am

Have you tried the 29.97 Easy Setup? I have played down 23.98 projects in 29.97 in 1080 without any problem, though I am working on a Kona 2, not an LHe.

Also, if you are outputting to HDCam, I assume you have the deck set to 29.97 [if I remember the menu correctly, it might be listed as 59.94]. The deck will not autodetect your format/framerate.

steve covello
double wide post


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fearless
Re: Urgent!! Adding pulldown on output
on Mar 4, 2007 at 5:41:29 am

I thought I had tried 29.97 but maybe worth another look - I think I was dropping frames, the RAIDs are very full, but I've just freed up 600GB...

We're actually shaving off a couple of bits and going via DVCPRO HD - not ideal I know but the HDCAM deck's down the road and we're trying to feed it 59.94... for SxSW in Austin Tx. Odd that an international festival can't project 24P, when they've asked for HDCAM - or is just SR that does it? I thought they might even stretch to 25P, but no...

Anyhow it's a 25fps-originated project going to a film print, so the mix has been stretched for a 23.976 playout with pulldown to avoid a full standards conversion, with all its attendant artefacts...

If I can't get the Kona to do it, I'll swap it out for a Multibridge Pro we have - hopefully it'll do what the Decklink HD cards will... and failing that I have Dr Nattress's Standards Conversion package with G Pulldown which looks great, at the cost of a big render...

Thanks!

Peter

Quad G5/NVidia Quadro/Kona LHe/Infortrend RAID/Final Touch HD 2.6.1/FCP 5.1.2/OS X 10.4.8


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David Battistella
Re: Urgent!! Adding pulldown on output
on Mar 4, 2007 at 3:33:09 pm



Make sure you absolutely double check with AJA on Monday (if you can wait that long) I know the K2 and K3 wil do this but You might also be pushing to much through the raids. If you bump it down tto DVCPRO HD then maybe do the natress render inthe same pass. Might be the bes/quickest solution in a pinch.


David



Peace and Love :)


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gary adcock
Re: Urgent!! Adding pulldown on output
on Mar 4, 2007 at 3:39:12 pm

[fearless] "We're actually shaving off a couple of bits and going via DVCPRO HD - not ideal I know but the HDCAM deck's down the road and we're trying to feed it 59.94... for SxSW in Austin Tx. Odd that an international festival can't project 24P, when they've asked for HDCAM - or is just SR that does it?"

remember that HDCAM playback is physically slowed down to playout @ 23.98, and the viewing conditions may not favor the 48i delivery for their venue, and by showing all releases as 60i the hardware can be generic across the festival.



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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gary adcock
Re: Urgent!! Adding pulldown on output
on Mar 4, 2007 at 3:33:58 pm

[fearless] " we have a 1080 project at 23.98 and need to get it out at 29.97 - tomorrow. "

Create your project as 1080 23.98 and then set only the video out to be 1080 29.97 and your should be able to deliver as 60i.

and contrary to other posts this can be done on all kona cards.



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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fearless
Re: Urgent!! Adding pulldown on output
on Mar 4, 2007 at 10:18:17 pm

Thanks Gary - but I think I'm just seeing duplicated frames... by the Video Out you mean FCP's Video Playback settings? Or the Kona codec menus? Because 1080i29.97 is greyed out on mine when the video arriving is at 1080sf23.98...

Quad G5/NVidia Quadro/Kona LHe/Infortrend RAID/Final Touch HD 2.6.1/FCP 5.1.2/OS X 10.4.8


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David Battistella
Re: Urgent!! Adding pulldown on output
on Mar 4, 2007 at 11:28:37 pm



I think what gary is suggesting is to perhaps do a 29.97 easy setup and just playback the 23.98 sequence (the Kona will play it out correctly).
The K2 and K3 will do this and so should the LH.

David


Peace and Love :)


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fearless
Re: Urgent!! Adding pulldown on output
on Mar 4, 2007 at 11:29:39 pm

Ah! I'll try it.

Quad G5/NVidia Quadro/Kona LHe/Infortrend RAID/Final Touch HD 2.6.1/FCP 5.1.2/OS X 10.4.8


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fearless
Re: Urgent!! Adding pulldown on output
on Mar 5, 2007 at 12:40:21 am

Thanks, tried that but the output was significantly jerkier, with what looked like the odd dropped or doubled frame - yet normal 1080i50 and 59.94 play out perfectly, as does Graeme Nattress's plugin renders which I recommend if you have the time (which we barely do) - it does a beautiful job. The RAIDs are handling capture and playout with ease.

The rule of thumb rendering pulldown on the Quad seems to be about 7x the duration of the piece. The film's 80min, so that's the rest of theday gone! But as for these boxes and cards we bought... I'm sure there's an elusive key to this that I'm not finding. I have my dunce's cap on already, I know it'll be that simple, but just playing a timeline doesn't look that great...

Quad G5/NVidia Quadro/Kona LHe/Infortrend RAID/Final Touch HD 2.6.1/FCP 5.1.2/OS X 10.4.8


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JeremyG
Re: Urgent!! Adding pulldown on output
on Mar 5, 2007 at 6:31:08 pm

Gary gave you the answer.

Set your Video Output to 1080i/29.97 in the View > Video Playback menu and then double check your Kona Control panel and make sure that your secondary is setup to 1080i and that you have the proper pulldown cadence selected in the codec tab of the control panel as well.

Jeremy


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