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Can I trade in my Kona ? (the end is near !)

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Bob Zelin
Can I trade in my Kona ? (the end is near !)
on Mar 2, 2007 at 8:22:49 pm

This is for the people that want to know if buying "brand A or brand B" is a
good 5 year investment -

Bob Zelin


From PC Magazine 2/28/07

Sources report that Apple is finishing up development on a new version of its Final Cut Studio suite, including Final Cut Pro 6, and will likely deliver the next-generation version of its professional video editing software when the National Association of Broadcasters kicks off the annual NAB trade show in April.

Apple originally planned to ship Final Cut Pro 6 at NAB last year but ran into delays when the company was forced to move members from that software's development to the Aperture development team. Aperture, Apple's professional photo editing and management software, received a lukewarm reception with its 1.0 release and required substantial rewriting of the code to deliver better performance and features, improvements that were delivered in September 2006 with the release of Aperture 1.5. Most of the reassigned developers returned to Final Cut Pro duties following that software release, sources say.

Most notable among the additions planned for Final Cut Pro 6 will be the release of a new, hardware-accelerated version of the software dubbed Final Cut Extreme. Sources say Extreme is slated to ship later this year, likely in the summer, with a price range of $10,000 to $30,000, depending on configuration. With such a solution, Apple is gearing up to take on main rival Avid in the realm of high-end video editing systems.

Working in tandem with Apple's Mac Pro system, Final Cut Extreme will enable customers to work with uncompressed 4K and 2540p video, suitable for working with Red Digital Cinema's Red camera, which is also expected to be delivered at NAB, as well as the Panavision Genesis, Dalso Origin, Thompson Viper, Sony Cinealta, Phantom HD, and Arri D20 cameras.

In addition, the hardware acceleration is said to support new versions of Apple's Motion software, as well as future applications, including the next-generation version of Shake, Apple's digital composition solution, currently on track for delivery in 2008.

Sources also say that Final Cut Pro 6 will require a 64-bit processor


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walter biscardi
Re: Can I trade in my Kona ? (the end is near !)
on Mar 2, 2007 at 8:44:01 pm

The only problem I see with this article is that it's written by someone from "thinksecret" which as we all know is a rumor site.

I think it's absolutely correct that FCP 6 will be shown at NAB since Apple has announced the Sunday event, but how much of the details will be correct remain to be seen. I take the article with a grain of salt until April 15 when we see for real what Apple is unveiling.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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walter biscardi
Re: Can I trade in my Kona ? (the end is near !)
on Mar 2, 2007 at 9:03:35 pm

While that's PC Magazine note that the author is from a rumor site. So while I agree that FCP 6 will be introduced at NAB, I'm taking all the specs with a grain of salt and will wait until April 15 to see what Apple really shows us.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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Steve Eisen
Re: Can I trade in my Kona ? (the end is near !)
on Mar 2, 2007 at 9:33:13 pm

That rumor has been around for a long time. It is obvious that Apple is going to release a major update this year to its Pro App product line. I'll take the wait and see approach.

Steve Eisen
Eisen Video Productions
Director-At-Large
Chicago Final Cut Pro Users Group


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Bob Zelin
Re: Can I trade in my Kona ? (the end is near !)
on Mar 2, 2007 at 10:27:49 pm

In real life, we don't do motion pictures down here in Orlando, nor have I ever seen anyone do a 2k project either. I will faint when my entire client base switches over to "standard def HD" - least not film res 4K stuff. I guess this is really for the LA feature market (and those who do independent features around the country). Perhaps the NY commercial market will shoot and edit in 4K, and downconvert for TV. I will be surprised if infomercials, corporate video, local TV spots, cable shows, etc. will "demand" being shot in 4K and edited in 4K. But you never know -

Bob Zelin


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Kevin Wild
Re: Can I trade in my Kona ? (the end is near !)
on Mar 3, 2007 at 2:02:08 am

First of all, I do know that FCP has been re-built groundup, so it will be big. The team working on it has not even been in the same building as the FCP5 team. So definitely expect a vast improvement over the old versions.

My next is a guess: I personally think that this whole "extreme" thing will probably be just a bundled version. It's about time Apple gets it together and sells entire systems, especially if they debut a card/hardware for I/O (which I'm not sure I believe). Anyways, put their top tier Mac, an XRaid, FCP suite and you pretty quickly get into the $10k-30k range they're talking. My guess is it will just be a bundled package.

Now, I sure would go for a few other things before I ask for 4k media (improved capture window to log as it loads & see meters, better media management, etc.)


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Bob Zelin
Re: Can I trade in my Kona ? (the end is near !)
on Mar 3, 2007 at 4:41:33 pm

Kevin writes -
My next is a guess: I personally think that this whole "extreme" thing will probably be just a bundled version. It's about time Apple gets it together and sells entire systems, especially if they debut a card/hardware for I/O (which I'm not sure I believe).


REPLY - if this happens, it's the end of FCP, and entryway for someone else. Apple's hardware support is non existant. If there were not AJA and Blackmagic out there to help us with the REAL issues (hardware, FCP would be useless.

If what you say were to happen, unless the Apple Enterprise Group was to be in 100% control of this product, the entire product line would fail, and hi end users would abandon FCP completely. The generic "technical support staff" of Apple Computer is a bunch of useless morons, that have no clue about their own product line (with the exception of the very qualified Apple Enterprise Group). Can you imagine paying $30,000 for a turnkey Apple solution, only to be directed to the "Genius Bar" at the local mall. Kevin, walk to your nearest mirror, look at yourself, and slap yourself in the face for even suggesting this.

We are all here because of John Apt and Grant Petty - Apple's FCP is only a software interface we use to make a living, and without AJA, Blackmagic (and in the past Pinnale Cinewave, Digital Voodoo, and Aurora), FCP would be a joke.

Long live AJA.

Bob Zelin


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walter biscardi
Re: Can I trade in my Kona ? (the end is near !)
on Mar 3, 2007 at 5:11:42 pm

[Bob Zelin] "We are all here because of John Apt and Grant Petty - Apple's FCP is only a software interface we use to make a living, and without AJA, Blackmagic (and in the past Pinnale Cinewave, Digital Voodoo, and Aurora), FCP would be a joke.

Long live AJA."


This is very true, though if Apple were to release some sort of OEM hardware bundle I would venture to guess whose hardware would be included. It only takes three letters.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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Kevin Wild
Re: Can I trade in my Kona ? (the end is near !)
on Mar 3, 2007 at 5:21:44 pm

I'm with you guys! Bob, no need for self-slapping. :-)

I always thought that if Apple was going to get into the true turnkey edit system biz, they would buy AJA. That said, I hope you're right, Bob. I personally don't think they need to get into that game. Again, I'm guessing, but I don't think this would be a true "turn key solution," but just a bundle of their existing products. (Computer, storage, software, high-end graphics card, display...)

I'm looking forward to FCP6 and hope some of the few pains have been resolved.


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CharlieX2
Re: Can I trade in my Kona ? (the end is near !)
on Mar 3, 2007 at 6:01:35 pm

Can Apple create a fully pro piece of software? Or are the always doomed to this hybrid pro-sumer sort of thing? Right now thanks to companies like AJA and BMD, plus all the high end gurus out there, we've enhanced and jimmy rigged FCP into a viable professional studio application.

It would be wonderful if someday Apple created a dedicated professional grade system with a dedicated support system ala Discreet - where you pay a premium for yearly service, yes, but you can get a uber trained engineer on the other end who can diagnose and solve your problems. Unfortunately like you've said, the current Apple model of tech support is some underpaid college kid at the Genius bar who I'm sure we all know MUCH more than.

I know Apple is trying to create a solution for both the curious amateur and the professional editor - and we obviously traded in our Avid bays for FCP because its a great alternative - but I'd really love Apple to bear its teeth a little, even if it means leaving the little guys behind with an "Express" version to play with



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Kevin Wild
Re: Can I trade in my Kona ? (the end is near !)
on Mar 3, 2007 at 7:40:18 pm

Ouch, CharleyX2, I would hardly call Apple's FCP software a hybrid pro-sumer app. That's pretty harsh. I work nearly every day on both AVID's and FCP and I would say short of a VERY few things, they are pretty close in their "professionalism." Not bad for Apple considering their compretitor had a 10 year headstart.

Keep positive about FCP 6. It's going to be big. It's the thing I love (and the thing that drives companies crazy) about Apple, they keep moving forward. I remember I took about 3 or 4 years off of AVID editing ('98-'02) and I couldn't believe how little had changed when I sat down with it again. :-) Good thing or bad thing? Both...


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walter biscardi
Re: Can I trade in my Kona ? (the end is near !)
on Mar 3, 2007 at 7:49:13 pm

[CharlieX2] "Or are the always doomed to this hybrid pro-sumer sort of thing?"

I definitely would not call FCP hybrid pro-sumer. We've delivered over 50 broadcast high definition masters to date and you can't do that with a 'pro-sumer' product. In many regards, FCP is a much stronger app than anything else out there, especially in terms of versatility.

It may have flaws, but there's I would never call it pro-sumer.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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CharlieX2
Re: Can I trade in my Kona ? (the end is near !)
on Mar 3, 2007 at 8:06:54 pm

sorry guys, I don't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers... pro-sumer isn't the word... it's saturday, i'm hungover stuck in the studio, it's a gorgeous day outside, and i'm grumpy :)

I mean, we've been using FCP since version 3 for national run commercials - heck, I just conformed an entire feature in HD on this box with a 5.1 mix and the whole lot and it performed beautifully. We've paid our penance convincing clients that "no, FCP is better than AVID. Really, trust us!" It just seems that there are core problems that have haunted FCP since the old days that need to be overhauled and in some cases removed. Ya know?



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walter biscardi
Re: Can I trade in my Kona ? (the end is near !)
on Mar 3, 2007 at 8:23:15 pm

[CharlieX2] "We've paid our penance convincing clients that "no, FCP is better than AVID. Really, trust us!""

Ah, see that's something I never try to do. I really don't believe one is better than the other anymore, they're just different tools for different workflows. Hell Premiere is a pretty good tool now that they've really revised the interface and I applaud Adobe's decision to bring the production suite back to the Mac.

All I tell my clients is that I'm delivering high definition broadcast shows through my system and that's pretty much all they need to know. As for FCP being "better" than Avid, that's for folks to argue here on the Cow.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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Bob Zelin
Re: Can I trade in my Kona ? (the end is near !)
on Mar 3, 2007 at 11:35:31 pm

With Steve Bayes (the product designer of the Media Composer interface up until 2 years ago) now being the product manager of Final Cut Pro, it will be pretty interesting to see what FCP 6 is. How can there be blind loyalty, when the very employees of AVID are now working on FCP product design. If you work for company X, and you are the star at company X, and you leave company X to go to a new company, or start your own company, will company X always be better than you are ?

The mindset of "Final Cut Pro sucks, it will never be an AVID", is the same mindset of film editors that
said "it's never going to be like a Kem or a Steenbeck". Don't worry, starting with this NAB, you will see tons of established 35mm film DP's saying "4K sucks, Red sucks, Panavision Genesis sucks - it will never be like film". And who can forget "real editors only use CMX".

Bob Zelin


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walter biscardi
Re: Can I trade in my Kona ? (the end is near !)
on Mar 4, 2007 at 1:42:59 am

[Bob Zelin] "And who can forget "real editors only use CMX"."

Wooooo and give me the Grass Valley 300 with an Abekas A53-D. Yeah Baby!

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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lasvideo
Re: Can I trade in my Kona ? (the end is near !)
on Mar 4, 2007 at 3:23:50 am

Dont forget the Ampex ADO ....the Chyron....Abekas A72 CG....Ampex 1" machines.... CMX 340-3600...


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scottgfx
Re: Can I trade in my Kona ? (the end is near !)
on Mar 4, 2007 at 9:20:53 am

I had a GVG-300 with a Kaleidoscope, so Pfffftttttttt. :)

I actually used an Abekas A53D with Warp on a GVG-200. It was no Kaleidoscope, but still very cool. :)


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ronnyron
Re: Can I trade in my Kona ? (the end is near !)
on Mar 4, 2007 at 2:39:26 pm

That's funny Walter.... most clients don't know the difference!
I've had producers sit in the edit room and call my Final Cut an Avid.
"Sure, its an Avid....whats the next shot?"

As long as they get what they want and pay the bill, they can call it whatever they want.

Ron


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CharlieX
Re: Can I trade in my Kona ? (the end is near !)
on Mar 5, 2007 at 5:38:40 pm

Man Walter, you're all over me! this is how it happened: Years ago we literally had clients come in, used to seeing Avid screens, and ask us "Hey, that's not Avid. That's Final Cut... look, I've got it here on my laptop." And just because they got some pirate version of FCP from someone at the ad agency, they assumed it was more of a gimmick program than a serious editor. And obviously it's the work, not the machine, that gets you paid at the end of the day. So we had to calmly tell them why it really kicked butt and there wasn't anything Avid could do we couldn't. Now years later FCP is all over the scene here in los angeles and it's not an issue.

I guess it was like showing up to the worksite in your Toyota Tundra and getting scoffed at all the Chevy and Ford owners about your foreign truck... until it outshined their's in performance and value.



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Joe Murray
Re: Can I trade in my Kona ? (the end is near !)
on Mar 4, 2007 at 6:21:47 am

Hey CharlieX2, I get where you're coming from. I'd never say that either Final Cut or Avid is better than the other overall, but there are some key "pro" features that Apple has never really fixed. Like the source in-point sort feature in EDL export (never has worked). Like all the problems with renders in 10 bit sequences over the years. And like all the features that got screwed up with the 5.1.3 release (had third party vendors had access to the software these problems most likely would have been caught before release). I agree with you that there are some important fixes that need to be made to FCP and I hope they are addressed with version 6.

Joe Murray


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Bob Zelin
Re: Can I trade in my Kona ? (the end is near !)
on Mar 4, 2007 at 6:08:10 pm

My #1 complain with the current AVID Adrenaline HD product in a professional enviornment is that it cannot output embedded SDI audio. With modern HD-SDI products from Sony and Panasonic all supporting embedded audio, it is beyond me that AVID, who is totally oriented their product line towards the broadcast industry, can digitize with embedded audio, but cannot output to a HD VTR (like a AJ-HD1400, or Sony SRW-5500) with embedded audio. So PLEASE don't tell me that AVID is really the "professional" product. Modern professional TV stations, that use HD-SDI routers, ain't running a seperate AES/EBU router frame on new installations.

By the way, I always use the AJA HD10AM audio embedder with every AVID Adrenaline HD system I install now, to get rid of this problem.

Bob Zelin


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