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arbolito
KONA FCP WORKFLOW- General questions
on Feb 20, 2007 at 6:48:28 pm



We're about to go into post on a 1080p24 (23.98) project and we're
planning to use the Kona 3 card with FCP. This workflow is new to us
so we have some very basic questions (please be gentle). We
appreciate your advice.

Will it be ok to use the Sony JH-3 deck to load our footage? I'm
pretty sure that it has an HD SDI out. Will we need tri-level sync
or can we just use a blackburst generator- are there specific
blackburst generators for 23.98? If we are shooting HDCAM with the
Sony F900, should we load as 10 bit HD or 8 bit? How much storage is
required for 1 hour of HD footage? Once we've captured our media,
can the Kona card downconvert to SD on the fly so that we can view
our project on an SD monitor as we edit, then rent a VTR when we have
locked our cut and are ready to output?

thanks





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Bob Zelin
Re: KONA FCP WORKFLOW- General questions
on Feb 20, 2007 at 10:03:14 pm

We're about to go into post on a 1080p24 (23.98) project and we're
planning to use the Kona 3 card with FCP.
Will it be ok to use the Sony JH-3 deck to load our footage?

REPLY -
you should specify if you are doing a TV show, or a feature film. The JH-3 is an excellent VTR, and will allow you do do a 3:2 pulldown (23PD menu in the JH3), so you can operate at a 59.94 framerate, and forget about working at 23.98 - IF YOU ARE DOING A TV SHOW. Once you are at this framerate, it will be easy for you to output to Digi Beta, Beta, or any other format you wish to dub to for distribution. The JH3 will also output at 23.98, if you are planning to finish for a feature film for theatrical release. So yes, the JH-3 is teriffic.


I'm pretty sure that it has an HD SDI out. -
REPLY - it does



Will we need tri-level sync or can we just use a blackburst generator- are there specific blackburst generators for 23.98?

REPLY - again, you should specify if you are doing a feature film, or a TV show. If you are doing a TV show, let the JH-3 operate with the 23PD feature, so you can edit at a 59.94 frame rate. Then you can use any cheapo NTSC black generator (29.97), and everything will be ok.

If you need to output back to a HD VTR at 23.98 (for a feature film release), YES, you will need a tri level sync generator, and an expensive HD VTR that can record a 23.98 signal, like a Sony HDW-M2000/10 or a
Sony HDW-F500. I assume that you dont' own this VTR, so the place you rent the VTR from can also rent you a tri level sync generator. You can also "get away" with keeping the Kona in free run, and let the HD VTR use the input video as the sync reference, so you don't need a tri level sync generator.




If we are shooting HDCAM with the
Sony F900, should we load as 10 bit HD or 8 bit?

REPLY - I can't answer that question. Is this for a feature film (a major motion picture), a small student film, or a TV show. You don't need 8 or 10 bit uncompressed HD if this is for a TV show. DVCProHD will be teriffic for a TV release. But if you are going onto the big screen, and quality is an issue, you should operate at 10 bit uncompressed. You will need big mama disk drive array to do this.



How much storage is
required for 1 hour of HD footage?

REPLY - at what resolution? For DVCProHD - not much. For 10 bit uncomrpessed HD - A LOT OF STORAGE.


Once we've captured our media,
can the Kona card downconvert to SD on the fly so that we can view
our project on an SD monitor as we edit, then rent a VTR when we have
locked our cut and are ready to output?

REPLY -
yes - the Kona card can downconvert to SD (get the K3 box for $299), and you can see the output of your HD material on a cheapo TV set. When you are ready to output, you can rent the HD VTR, and the HD monitor (and maybe the tri level sync gen, if you need to work at 23.98).

Bob Zelin



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arbolito
Re: KONA FCP WORKFLOW- General questions
on Feb 21, 2007 at 6:17:17 pm

thanks guys. this is a TV program. our final deliverable is 1080p24
HDCAM. We are not mixing other content, graphics etc. with the
program. If we offline in SD or DV25, what steps will we need to
take to online in 1080p24- is there a guide somewhere to that
workflow in FCP? Can we just consolidate our final sequence in the
Media Manager and reload at 1080p24? Will FCP be able to convert the
TC from 29.97 to 23.98? We have a 7TB Xserve RAID and the fastest
Mac Pro, so I don't think speed or space will be an issue, right?

Bob- is it necessary to get the K3 box in order to view downconverted
HD on a "cheepo TV set"? it looks like it just has all the same
outputs as the cables that already come with the card.

thanks again for all your help.


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R.Howard
Re: KONA FCP WORKFLOW- General questions
on Feb 20, 2007 at 10:20:15 pm

arbolito,

Will it be ok to use the Sony JH-3 deck to load our footage? I'm pretty sure that it has an HD SDI out.

The answer is yes with HD SDI, otherwise you will need a converter in the mix.


Will we need tri-level sync or can we just use a blackburst generator- are there specific blackburst generators for 23.98?

Tri-level for HD will work best.

If we are shooting HDCAM with the Sony F900, should we load as 10 bit HD or 8 bit?

Words of wisdom from Gary Adcock
What the tape says it can do and what the camera and deck can do are 2 different things, and how the data is recorded to tape is another. Regular HDCam is 3:1:1 10-bit HDCAM CAMERA master is 3:1:1 @ 8bit

Sooooo....
*Are you mixing any other content with this, heavy on effects, going back out to film??? These are the things that will generally get a better response to the question.


How much storage is required for 1 hour of HD footage?

24p at 1080 RGB 3TB will give you 201 minutes
24p at 1080 YUV 3TB will give you 350 minutes

roughly 880Gb for 60 minutes of RGB

*But remember it's not about the capacity it's about the thruput of the combined drives that you should focus on.


Once we've captured our media, can the Kona card downconvert to SD on the fly so that we can view our project on an SD monitor as we edit, then rent a VTR when we have locked our cut and are ready to output?

Absolutely :)

Best of luck,
Ramona


Ramona Howard
SpectSoft, LLC
593 Hi-Tech Parkway Suite B
Oakdale, CA 95361
Phone: 209.847.7812 extension 104
Fax: 209.847.7859
http://www.spectsoft.com

RaveHD - Changing the way you think about HD


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arbolito
Re: KONA FCP WORKFLOW- General questions
on Feb 21, 2007 at 6:17:39 pm

thanks guys. this is a TV program. our final deliverable is 1080p24
HDCAM. We are not mixing other content, graphics etc. with the
program. If we offline in SD or DV25, what steps will we need to
take to online in 1080p24- is there a guide somewhere to that
workflow in FCP? Can we just consolidate our final sequence in the
Media Manager and reload at 1080p24? Will FCP be able to convert the
TC from 29.97 to 23.98? We have a 7TB Xserve RAID and the fastest
Mac Pro, so I don't think speed or space will be an issue, right?

Bob- is it necessary to get the K3 box in order to view downconverted
HD on a "cheepo TV set"? it looks like it just has all the same
outputs as the cables that already come with the card.

thanks again for all of your help.


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Bob Zelin
Re: KONA FCP WORKFLOW- General questions
on Feb 21, 2007 at 7:13:18 pm

guys. this is a TV program. our final deliverable is 1080p24
HDCAM. We are not mixing other content, graphics etc. with the
program.

REPLY - who is asking for 1080p24 deliver ? Every station in the US will take a
1080i 59.94 delivery. Work in 59.94, and save yourself some aggrivation.


If we offline in SD or DV25, what steps will we need to
take to online in 1080p24- is there a guide somewhere to that
workflow in FCP? Can we just consolidate our final sequence in the
Media Manager and reload at 1080p24? Will FCP be able to convert the
TC from 29.97 to 23.98? We have a 7TB Xserve RAID and the fastest
Mac Pro, so I don't think speed or space will be an issue, right?

REPLY - in my opinion, simply dump your material into the XServe RAID at DVCProHD, and you don't
have to off line at all. Work at 59.94, and you don't have to think about any of this crap.
Just edit, and work normally, without any of the conversion crap. 7 TB of DVCProHD will fit all
of your footage.

Bob Zelin



Bob- is it necessary to get the K3 box in order to view downconverted
HD on a "cheepo TV set"? it looks like it just has all the same
outputs as the cables that already come with the card.

REPLY -
don't even ask this question. You are doing a hi end HD project, and have the budget for a Mac Pro and
an Apple XServe RAID - just get the K3 box for $299, and you won't have to even think about anything.
You have a fortune in equipment - don't cheap out on $299. That skinny octopus snake is a pain in the
ass, and you won't get analog audio monitoring without the K3 Box.

Bob Zelin


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arbolito
Re: KONA FCP WORKFLOW- General questions
on Feb 21, 2007 at 10:58:13 pm

Thanks Bob. I imagine we could get away with delivering a 1080i
program, will have to confirm with our client. We will definitely be
originating on 1080p24 for aesthetic purposes. Can we load this
footage using the DVCPROHD codec through the Kona card? Can we then
out put to HDCAM 1080i through the card without having to go through
a UCON or Terenex upconverter?


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Bob Zelin
Re: KONA FCP WORKFLOW- General questions
on Feb 21, 2007 at 11:21:07 pm

yes, yes, yes. First, I have NEVER heard of ANY broadcaster in the US that will even accept a 1080p delivery. All Sony HD VTRs (and I don't know the SRW series) will only record 1080i, not 1080p. DVCProHD is a codec, widely used by everyone, except the most hi end HD delivery products (that demand uncompressed HD). A DVCProHD compression job will record back thru the Kona right onto the Sony HD VTR at 1080i, with NO PROBLEMS.

When you see people saying "this guy is full of crap, you must use uncompressed HD" - remember this. 95% of the broadcasters in the US use AVID Adrenaline HD systems, and these systems DO NOT use uncompressed HD - they use the DNxHD codec, which is similar to DVCProHD. The top DNxHD resolution is called DNxHD220, which is similar to DVCProHD. AND CBS NETWORK uses the AVID Unity ISIS server, which can only operate at the lower compressed resolution of DNxHD145, so dont' let anyone snow you about uncompressed HD.

Uncompressed HD is teriffic, but most people simply don't use it, for cost
and storage reasons. This includes AVID and AVID users. As for 1080p delivery - no TV station that I know of will accept this as a delivery format, and if you rent a Sony HDW-M2000 or HDW-F500 to lay off your job to, it's going to be 1080i, not 1080p.

Bob ZElin


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Nick Gardner
Re: KONA FCP WORKFLOW- General questions
on Feb 24, 2007 at 9:51:02 pm



Hi Bob,

The History Channel, PBS, and I am pretty sure the Discovery Chanel, all want 1080psf HDCAM Masters, and all the new HDcam decks record this format. This is the most universal format and the reason they request it is for international distrobution. I think the "PSF" causes the confusion because it stands for "progressive segmented frame" which I think is a fancy way of saying it's recorded at 1080i but you can get your 24 frames back out of the the tape using voodo and chinese math.

Cheers,

Nick Gardner


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Bob Zelin
Re: KONA FCP WORKFLOW- RANT !
on Feb 25, 2007 at 4:10:41 pm

Nick -
you are posting incorrect information - at least about Discovery Channel delivery specs.

Below is partial documentation about Discovery HD delivery specs.

This comes from the following link -
http://www.discoverychannel.ca/_includes/disclaimer/producers_guide/

Bob Zelin


BROADCAST MASTERS

Sony HD Cam 1080i / 59.94, Stereo audio on channels 1 & 2, Dolby 5.1 mix (when available) expressed as Dolby E on channels 3 & 4.

Where facilities exist, the HD master must be accompanied by a closed captioned Betacam SX standard definition down converted dub. This standard definition dub shall contain a 16:9 letterboxed image obtained from the HD master. The program content shall be exactly the same on both versions of the master and the times codes shall match exactly. Audio shall also match for any Lt/Rt or Lo/Ro content but no Dolby E is necessary. Closed captioning shall be on line 21.

Discovery HD requires programs to be mastered in the 1080i 59.54 signal standard. Programs may be acquired in the 720P 59.94 signal standard and mastered in 1080i 59.94 for delivery only with prior approval. Programs may be acquired and delivered in 1080 psf 23.98 or 25, or 1080i 50 only with prior permission from Discovery HD.


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walter biscardi
Re: KONA FCP WORKFLOW- RANT !
on Feb 25, 2007 at 4:24:50 pm

[Bob Zelin] "BROADCAST MASTERS

Sony HD Cam 1080i / 59.94, Stereo audio on channels 1 & 2, Dolby 5.1 mix (when available) expressed as Dolby E on channels 3 & 4."


That's pretty much the standard I've seen with the specs I've gotten from networks, though none that I work with are doing 5.1. They just want split audio on 3 and 4.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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Nick Gardner
Re: KONA FCP WORKFLOW- RANT !
on Feb 26, 2007 at 6:47:16 am



Hi guys,

Perhaps I was not clear. I am sure that the US deliverable is 1080i 59.94. I was just saying that PBS, and The History channel require - and I can't say that it is for all shows - a second deliverable at 108024psf. This is for EU consumtion. Just as they often require a textless version to put new graphics in what ever language the show will be aired in on. since the original post said that they needed a 24p master, I thought that might be where that was coming from. As I said in my original post, I am not sure about Discovery.

Sorry if I created more confusion than there already was.

Nick


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