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Gary Barr
kona lh - hdv to dvcprohd workflow - confused, please help..
on Feb 13, 2007 at 10:35:57 pm

Hi,
I want to go hdv to dvcprohd using a Canon HV10 camcorder as a deck for Canon's 25F. I've been reading posts everywhere for a week and still am a bit confused. With audio, do I really need a mixer or unbalanced-balanced converter for my audio or will a short rca-xlr cable do the job? Also, what about timecode? Surely I want it but will this setup not give me timecode in FCP after digitizing? How can you edit properly without it? I only mention it as I was looking at Convergent Design's box to bring it in as HD-SDI and it says you get timecode too. I thought timecode would be given for any NLE? I'm new to this setup so be gentle please!


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Bob Zelin
Re: kona lh - hdv to dvcprohd workflow - confused, please help..
on Feb 14, 2007 at 3:47:13 am

You write -
I'm new to this setup so be gentle please!

REPLY -
you want me to be gentle, use the firewire port, and forget the Kona LH. You want HI END HI QUALITY VIDEO PERFORMANCE, you are going to spend some money.
Why do you need to use a mixer, why do you need to use scopes, why do you need to use a professional VTR (or at least a HDV VTR instead of your stupid camera as a deck) - my friend, use HDV, and get what you get. If this is what you can afford, I understand, and HDV firewire will work for you. But if you want to compete with everyone on this forum, with hi performance DVCProHD or better results, you are going to spend some money. End of story.



I want to go hdv to dvcprohd using a Canon HV10 camcorder as a deck for Canon's 25F. I've been reading posts everywhere for a week and still am a bit confused. With audio, do I really need a mixer or unbalanced-balanced converter for my audio or will a short rca-xlr cable do the job?

REPLY -
RCA to XLR cables will input your audio -14dBu lower that what is expected by the Kona LH card (or any other professional capture solution).



Also, what about timecode? Surely I want it but will this setup not give me timecode in FCP after digitizing? How can you edit properly without it? I only mention it as I was looking at Convergent Design's box to bring it in as HD-SDI and it says you get timecode too. I thought timecode would be given for any NLE? I'm new to this setup so be gentle please!

REPLY -
if you don't have a path for VTR control, you won't get time code. You can use the firewire port just for VTR control, and bring in your audio and video thru the Kona.


I will never be gentle if you want to do a hi end job, and not buy the gear that everyone else on this forum purchases, to do a professional job. Many users have no budget, and simply use firewire for DV or HDV. But I for one, will not help you bid on a job, to undercut all these other hard working people on this forum (and other forums) who have spent their life savings to buy the right gear to do a hi end HD job, only to be undercut by a guy with no equipment.

If you are a student - I deeply apologize to you. The Kona HD is a fine product. The Convergent Design is a great converter to assist you, as will the AJA HD10AVA. You can get VTR control and TC via firewire. The Kona LH will accept analog audio (get your levels correct, or embed them with an
AJA HD10AVA), and accept the analog HD Y Pb Pr signals right out of your camera, so you can edit in DVCProHD.

Bob Zelin







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Gregory Dillard
Re: kona lh - hdv to dvcprohd workflow - confused, please help..
on Feb 14, 2007 at 5:21:24 am

Bob,
i am a professional and please help with our dilemma. Please correct me if i am incorrect as well and yes, be harsh. We love the constructive (but true) criticism. We are going to purchase an XL H1, KONA LHe to add to our umcompressed system (G5 Quad Core, AJA i/0, DSR 1500A with SDI, BETA SP Deck). Our plans are to shoot in the HDV with the XL H1, ingest via HD SDI to the DVCProHD Codec and edit. Then we want to output to BETA SP for broadcast commercials. I know that the audio from the XL H1 is not embedded, therefore we would like to know what to do. These commercials are for cable and the local networks. Also we are adding the Redrock Micro 35 adapter as well.


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Wayne Carey
Re: kona lh - hdv to dvcprohd workflow - confused, please help..
on Feb 15, 2007 at 9:05:31 pm

[Gregory Dillard] "We are going to purchase an XL H1, KONA LHe to add to our umcompressed system (G5 Quad Core, AJA i/0, DSR 1500A with SDI, BETA SP Deck"

Can I ask? Why the XL H1? If you go with Sony, you can get a camera and a deck for the same cost as Canon. Is it so that you can use the Redrock Micro lens adapter?


_______________________________

Wayne Carey
Schazam Productions
http://www.schazamproductions.com


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Christopher Wright
Re: kona lh - hdv to dvcprohd workflow - confused, please help..
on Feb 14, 2007 at 5:54:36 am

"I will never be gentle if you want to do a hi end job, and not buy the gear that everyone else on this forum purchases, to do a professional job. Many users have no budget, and simply use firewire for DV or HDV. But I for one, will not help you bid on a job, to undercut all these other hard working people on this forum (and other forums) who have spent their life savings to buy the right gear to do a hi end HD job, only to be undercut by a guy with no equipment."

Amen to that!


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Shane Ross
Re: kona lh - hdv to dvcprohd workflow - confused, please help..
on Feb 14, 2007 at 5:55:05 am

Yeah...I was a bit disappointed with the post workflow for the Canon HDV cameras. I shot some test footage and got some GREAT images. I mean...really nice stuff. But when it came time to capture it, I was in a corner. FCP would not recognize the camera no matter what setting I chose. The computer saw it, but not FCP. So I ended up capturing it via the HD SDI out into my Kona LH as DVCPRO HD...audio from the balanced outs on the camera to the mixer, then mixer to the Kona. And no...I got no timecode. So that basically made the tape I shot with useless. The media itself is now the master...and I have to archive that.

Nice image, but really not worth it.


Shane

Littlefrog Post
http://www.lfhd.net


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Gary Barr
Re: kona lh - hdv to dvcprohd workflow - confused, please help..
on Feb 14, 2007 at 10:25:24 am

jesus Bob, do you have shares in a deck company or something? tonnes of people are using the HV10 as a deck to capture Canon's 25F because mainly THERE IS NO DECK FOR 25F YET and the HV10 plays back 25F although doesn't record it, hope that answers that. I do have other decks, DVCAM and miniDV so I do buy the products if I think they are needed, and that was my question, what's needed? of course you get what you pay for, that's just a lazy answer, but I know you can pay


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weevie833
Re: kona lh - hdv to dvcprohd workflow - confused, please help..
on Feb 14, 2007 at 4:04:39 pm

Gary - you have to cut Bob some slack, for he is truly a representative of the urge forward in relatively low-cost technology for hi-end results, despite the course language of his stance.

That said, until you have a complete package of functioning peripherals, you will have to do some things ass-backwards, such as editing without original TC, or transcoding some things. when it came to making some decisions about which cards to get and what sort of storage system, I felt it was better to go and visit some places and ask some questions to see it with my own eyes rather than posting on a forum. One guy suggested I buy a $60,000 Rorke Data SCSI array for my storage system and I had to laugh at the audacity to be asking that much for something I could get for a fourth or fifth of the price elsewhere.

I'm not offering any solutions to your question here, but it seems as though you've gotten yourself painted into a corner both technically and with your budget. Bob is right -- you WILL ultimately have to cough up some dough to get a system setup the way it is supposed to be, so anticipate it now. But at least it will only cost you a low-5 amount rather than a low-6, as it was a mere 10 years ago.

I will argue with Bob's sentiment that you are obligated to make the same levels of investment that everybody else here has presumably made to be able to compete with them. If you are able to operate professionally for half the cost of what I spent or Walter or Gary, and take jobs away from us, God bless you. That is precisely what I am trying to do to all of the opulent, overblown, high-rate editing boutiques here in NYC, and a lot of them have gone out of business while I am still here, clinging to the lifeboat. Clients no longer ask for bids or estimates on jobs -- they say here is my money, take it or leave it. It's my job [and yours] to find a way to make it profitable. This is capitalism at its best.

Hopefully, the final arbiter of success here will be talent, not budget. I just had a bitter argument with a guy at Heavy.com who was soliciting original music from DJs and musicians so that they could be used to make video mash-ups -- for no pay and no credit. He pissed off a lot of creative professionals, but somehow the Bigs at Heavy.com thought it was a viable idea. This is what we are fighting against, not each other.

steve covello
double wide post


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gary adcock
Re: kona lh - hdv to dvcprohd workflow - confused, please help..
on Feb 14, 2007 at 4:29:19 pm

[weevie833] " it seems as though you've gotten yourself painted into a corner both technically and with your budget. Bob is right -- you WILL ultimately have to cough up some dough to get a system setup the way it is supposed to be, so anticipate it now. "

Here here Steve,
it simple -- if your planning on being a pro, people are going to demand quality, but at what price. I use these tools because they allow me to work faster, at higher quality, with considerably less effort or hassle.
Working more efficiently means I can make creative decisions on the fly and have the hardware take some of the load off of me. We don't cut in HDV - it is just faster not to.

We understand when and where to use the tools at hand because like any good mechanic will tell you, you cannot do the job correctly without the proper tools. Storage, software and computers are our tools, and not buying the best tools you can afford will hold you back at some point in your post career.


the other gary....
.
.


gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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gary adcock
Re: kona lh - hdv to dvcprohd workflow - confused, please help..
on Feb 14, 2007 at 4:29:19 pm

[weevie833] " it seems as though you've gotten yourself painted into a corner both technically and with your budget. Bob is right -- you WILL ultimately have to cough up some dough to get a system setup the way it is supposed to be, so anticipate it now. "

Here here Steve,
it simple -- if your planning on being a pro, people are going to demand quality, but at what price. I use these tools because they allow me to work faster, at higher quality, with considerably less effort or hassle.
Working more efficiently means I can make creative decisions on the fly and have the hardware take some of the load off of me. We don't cut in HDV - it is just faster not to.

We understand when and where to use the tools at hand because like any good mechanic will tell you, you cannot do the job correctly without the proper tools. Storage, software and computers are our tools, and not buying the best tools you can afford will hold you back at some point in your post career.


the other gary....
.
.


gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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Gary Barr
Re: kona lh - hdv to dvcprohd workflow - confused, please help..
on Feb 14, 2007 at 10:20:29 pm

I see what you're saying and I agree, but my questions were merely 'what will this product get me over that product?' not 'I'm not paying for this or that and I'm a cheapskate trying to do it on the cheap'.

Everyone has different budgets for the type of work they're doing - I can tell you that the only projects we're shooting on HDV and which we want to edit DVCProHD are weddings (I think this workflow will be perfect eventually) so now you can see that I'm actually putting more into this financially than the average videographer. I don't know of too many guys doing weddings on HDV and trying to do the best for their clients and their business by bringing it in DVCProHD via Kona so please don't prejudge guys before having a go. I never realised there was such insecurity on this forum. To be honest if someone can do a job better for a client with less money and less tech then good luck to them, they deserve the gig - the quality isn't in the kit, it's in the final product, try not to lose sight of that.


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Kevin Wild
Re: kona lh - hdv to dvcprohd workflow - confused, please help..
on Feb 14, 2007 at 11:54:20 pm

Bob is right, but perhaps I can help from our experiences, too.

We regularly shoot using our Canon H1, A1 and HV10 and then capture via the KonaLHe using the DVCProHD codec. The wonderful device that does everything you need is the Convergent Design HD-Connect SI. http://www.convergent-design.com/CD_Products_HDConnectSI.htm You can buy it for less than $1000 and it's worth every penny.

All you do is hook up your HV10 to this device and then take a BNC cable out of it's SDI port into your Kona. Then, in your AJA settings, choose SDI Input for video and Embedded Audio 1-8 for audio in. Finally, hook up an RS-422 cable to the device. Voila! You now have a capture scenario that takes in HDSDI with embedded audio into the Kona and also brings in Timecode. You control your HV10 just like a deck.

This works perfectly...we use it every day. Short of having a dedicated deck (which I wish we did), this is the best post workflow in my opinion. Good luck.

Kevin Wild
http://www.drawbridge.tv


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Bob Zelin
Re: kona lh - hdv to dvcprohd workflow - confused, please help..
on Feb 15, 2007 at 1:45:43 am

Gary -
you have been given your answers - multiple times now. You can use a Convergent Design adaptor for the Canon. You can use the component output of
the camera, and go right into your Kona LH Y Pb Pr video inputs, without spending any additional money. You can use a Henry Match box, or a cheap Behringer mixer to boost your camera audio levels up to a +4dBu level to match the inputs of the AJA Kona LH. This will cost you under $150. You can use the firewire port for VTR control - just change your setting in the Audio/Video Settings VTR Control tab (4th one over).

If you have any more questions, just ask. I will give you straight answers, with the exact equipment to purchase, at the lowest price.

Am I overly sensitive ? You bet. No matter what HI END technology comes out, to be the best there is, someone will say "hey, can I do uncompressed HD on my laptop that I bought on ebay, with no extra money ?". This NAB in 2007, several companies will introduce 4K technology, which will outperform any HD products on the market, and compete with the major 35mm film market. And 1 week later on this forum, some F#$%#$G moron will say "hey, can I produce a feature film at 35mm quality on my laptop with my $1500 dollar camera ?". I guess I would like to see the professional video market stay around for at least a few more years.

Bob Zelin


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Gary Barr
Re: kona lh - hdv to dvcprohd workflow - confused, please help..
on Feb 15, 2007 at 8:27:54 am

sure I can see what you're saying and thanks for the advice. I'm glad I was on the right track initially with the gear I was researching, just wanted some reassurance and guidance so that I could buy the best kit I could afford for the job, but also know that it wouldn't be overkill.


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StuS57
Re: kona lh - hdv to dvcprohd workflow - confused, please help..
on Feb 15, 2007 at 4:56:04 pm

Well, here's one last suggestion. Instead of capturing dvcprohd, maybe you should consider the Sheer Codec - from reliable posters elsewhere, it gets raves. Then, you could capture with your hv10, keep your tc, edit in hdv & monitor with your LHe, and then render in the Sheer Codec, which is supposed to be comparable in quality to dvcpro hd, and requires about half the drive space. Search the FCP/Cow for details.


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