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AJA Kona3 25p or 25psf mode?

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ruslan_3d
AJA Kona3 25p or 25psf mode?
on Dec 21, 2006 at 2:42:25 pm

CAn somebody explane how to work with progressive 25p or 25psf modes with AJA Kona 3 in FCP. I only finded 25i (1080i 25) mode.


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gary adcock
Re: AJA Kona3 25p or 25psf mode?
on Dec 21, 2006 at 4:35:01 pm

[ruslan_3d] "CAn somebody explane how to work with progressive 25p or 25psf modes with AJA Kona 3 in FCP. I only finded 25i (1080i 25) mode"

Only Sony can really explain this, but I will try.

in the 1080 delivery format for (23.98, 24 & 25) is a progressive segmented frame, very very few devices have the ability to generate a truly progressive frame, and so that your old beta tapes would play in the Sony HDcam decks the format is captured progressively and played back as interlace - with each progressive frame playing back as 2 fields - This progressive segmented frame (PsF) is going to playback materials as interlace, hense the reason your 25p content is 50i (incorrectly marked as 25i).

Know too that your FCP/ Kona system is treating the content as progressive for renders and effects, but due to the nature of the format it is delivering the content as 50i in "PAL" frame rates.

This is an ongoing education- there are many people here in the states that do not understand that 24Psf is playing back a@ 48i - even my fancy new blu ray dvd player is spitting out that 1080p labeled disk as 48i.




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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Michael Zimbard
Re: AJA Kona3 25p or 25psf mode?
on Dec 21, 2006 at 10:44:59 pm

Very interesting Gary.....great food for thought. To continue the discussion - is 720P a truly progressive format? When I output a sequence from my Kona 2 that was shot on a Varicam at 23.98 is it being sent out 24P or 48i? What about for Varicam footage shot at 59.94? Just curious......


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gary adcock
Re: AJA Kona3 25p or 25psf mode?
on Dec 21, 2006 at 11:07:26 pm

[Michael Zimbard] "To continue the discussion - is 720P a truly progressive format? When I output a sequence from my Kona 2 that was shot on a Varicam at 23.98 is it being sent out 24P or 48i? What about for Varicam footage shot at 59.94? Just curious......"

good question.

720p is always progressive - it is only the Sony created format that is a progressive segmented frame.


want another oddity?
24p content is always NON-DROP (even though the timing is based as 23.98 or 24.0 - and is true for SD, 720 and 1080)



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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ruslan_3d
Re: AJA Kona3 25p or 25psf mode?
on Dec 22, 2006 at 6:22:06 am

Hi Gary!

Thank You for answers. I know about PsF, Progressive and Interlased formats. But I want to now how Kona3 work. We have GrassViley Viper, Sony SRW-1, Sony SRW-5500 in or facility. And 1080p (Psf) and 24p is the main workflow formats for us. And how I can understand all formats 25i, 25psf and 25p on Kona 3 is always 25i. Only I need is to set in FCP Field Dominanse - None for projects. Or I need to do something else?


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R.Howard
Re: AJA Kona3 25p or 25psf mode?
on Dec 22, 2006 at 5:19:02 pm

Ruslan,

You will be safe with using the Kona3 for this workflow. We have many clients using the same hardware daily. They all are working pretty much 24.

In a nutshell:

The board can add the 2:3 on the fly for output so the 24 frame material (or whatever frame rate) can exist on the drives as such. In our case we work natively DPX, so I can't speak how FCP handles this. Essentially all we are doing is passing the 24fps DPX frames to the board and with the correct register settings, whala....you get what you need. Some of this relies on the software doing the pushing but for the most part they are all using the hardware the same (or at least I would hope).

The board if used properly will not effect the image coming in or going out of it. In otherwords the image you expect to go in will come out. Now of course you can manipulate that image if you like with the many features the board offers you.

Hope that helps,
Ramona

Ramona Howard
SpectSoft, LLC
593 Hi-Tech Parkway Suite B
Oakdale, CA 95361
Phone: 209.847.7812 extension 104
Fax: 209.847.7859
http://www.spectsoft.com

RaveHD - Changing the way you think about HD


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cmlundy
Re: AJA Kona3 25p or 25psf mode?
on Dec 23, 2006 at 3:08:09 pm

I actually spoke to AJA support a month or so ago to inquire about 25psf. It is not supported by the Kona board. We were trying to capture 1080psf 25 from D5 and I could get it to work but only if the video input source was set to 1080i 25 (which is the way a psf signal is delivered as Gary mentioned). But AJA said that the board has no programming to deal with this 25 psf as it does with 23.98 psf. So even though I could capture video there's no way of confirming that the board combined the segmented frames correctly as needs to be done for PsF. They said the Xena deals with this format though and that they just don't have much customer demand to use this format. Obviously the Kona board could physically do it but they need to program for it.

So no go on 25psf. By the way, PsF is pretty much they only "progressive" format being used regularly. Very few monitors can display a true progressive image since they need the interlace signal carrying a PsF picture.

Good luck.

-Chris Lundy




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R.Howard
Re: AJA Kona3 25p or 25psf mode?
on Dec 28, 2006 at 7:37:42 pm

Chris,

Sorry for the delay. Christmas and all.

We support our own drivers which explains why we see this support. We look at all the AJA boards the same, using the same driver and we don't always look at the individual aspects of each of the boards (Kona vs Xena).

Cheers,
Ramona

Ramona Howard
SpectSoft, LLC
593 Hi-Tech Parkway Suite B
Oakdale, CA 95361
Phone: 209.847.7812 extension 104
Fax: 209.847.7859
http://www.spectsoft.com

RaveHD - Changing the way you think about HD


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gary adcock
Re: AJA Kona3 25p or 25psf mode?
on Dec 24, 2006 at 3:54:26 pm

[ruslan_3d] "I know about PsF, Progressive and Interlased formats. But I want to now how Kona3 work. We have GrassViley Viper, Sony SRW-1, Sony SRW-5500 in or facility."

Unless you are working in a frame based workflow (as described by my friend Ramona) my guess is you are only working in PsF video. If your viper material is going straight to the SRW decK- my guess the deck is set to supply the 1080 output as PsF -Unless you changed it, it is the default. Most NLE workflows only support 720 as true progressive due to the relative few that work in a true 1080 progressive format.

[ruslan_3d] "And 1080p (Psf) and 24p is the main workflow formats for us. And how I can understand all formats 25i, 25psf and 25p on Kona 3 is always 25i. Only I need is to set in FCP Field Dominanse - None for projects. Or I need to do something else?"

They work the same way - it has nothing to do with the Kona Card - the format is Sony's / SMPTE's and AJA has to comply with the standard as it was created.

For your purposes-- 25i 25PsF and 25P are all handled the same as you handle 24Psf now. Use the easy setup and go. However you need to download Aja's additional easy setup so that you have access to the less commonly used versions of the formats you are planning on working in < http://www.aja.com/ajashare/Kona3_Additional_Easy_Setups....


gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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ruslan_3d
Re: AJA Kona3 25p or 25psf mode?
on Dec 25, 2006 at 11:31:39 am

To gary

I'm try 25i setups for now. But Easy Setups from AJA nor usefull for us. I need 25i/25psf 10 Bit RGB setups. And additional setups from AJA < http://www.aja.com/ajashare/Kona3_Additional_Easy_Setups.... not usefull too. They provide support for 50p mode. And when I try to capture video from SRWs i need true 50 frame per second :-).

By the way, does somebody have trobles with capturing? I often get message "VTR trouble. Check cassete bla-bla-bla." CApture stops. And I didn't see any reasons to get this message . . .


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mohamed mira
Re: AJA Kona3 25p or 25psf mode?
on Jan 22, 2007 at 11:14:27 am

Dear Gary
i have almost the same problem
My client has G5 quad, 3Gig RAM, 3.5Gig Xserve RAID, CineAlta f900, HDW f500, KONA LHe, FCP 5.1

My client shooting in 1080psf 25 format

I cant capture that format coz it is not in the Easy setup, even i cant set it manualy

The wierd thing is that i dont have 1080i 50 as you said above - IT IS NOT THERE

PLEASE advice what to do

i need a link to web site explain HOW 1080psf 25 is working

Mohamed Mira
multimedia supervisor


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gary adcock
Re: AJA Kona3 25p or 25psf mode?
on Jan 25, 2007 at 3:03:51 pm

[mohamed mira] "I cant capture that format coz it is not in the Easy setup, even i cant set it manualy"

Mohamed

with the current versions of OSX / FCP and the Kona driver 3.3 the setting is marked as 1080i25 only because the file is handled as progressive in the NLE but plays out as interlace at 50 fields-- Think of it as 1080 29.97 in the NTSC world that is really 59.94, for some reason Sony has not adopted the 60 frames 60 fields concept for HD content and maintains that naming structure from SD ( which I find confusing)




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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