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Pipito
G-RAID Pro
on Nov 29, 2006 at 10:46:41 pm

I wanted opinion on the G-RAID Pro - FireWire 800 Storage Solution to edit DVCPRO HD 1080i 29.97

Anyone has experience with this storage solution?



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walter biscardi
Re: G-RAID Pro
on Nov 30, 2006 at 12:09:22 am

If you're talking about the new G-RAID2 models I would avoid them. I love my two older model G-RAID's (500 and 800GB) but have returned two of the new G-RAID2 1000GB models. They run slower than the older model and if you daisy chain anything off that drive, speeds drop dramatically to the point of all editing stops.

Not sure what they changed in the new 2 models, but something is different. If you want to go G-RAID, purchase the original 500 and 800GB models, those are just fine with FW 800.

Or go SATA and look at Cal Digit models. I've been testing a 1.5TB SVR2 Duo for a review and the thing rocks. I'm ordering a 3.7TB model this week.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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Pipito
Re: G-RAID Pro
on Nov 30, 2006 at 12:22:15 am

The G-RAID PRO is a 5 bay raid 0, firewire 800 interphase. Im sceptical about the throuput of FW800, but I like the siplicity of the interconection. I need at least 40/mbs. Im editing DVCPRO HD 1080/60i I need realtime playback on at least 3 streams. Anyone tested this?



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gary adcock
Re: G-RAID Pro
on Nov 30, 2006 at 12:54:24 am

[Pipito] "The G-RAID PRO is a 5 bay raid 0, firewire 800 interphase. Im sceptical about the throuput of FW800, but I like the siplicity of the interconection. I need at least 40/mbs."


The G-Raid Pro is a fine device, offering redundancy and sufficient thruputfor your worklfow but check your math My numbers for 3 streams of 1080i60 is closer to 60MBs than it is to the 40MBs you quote, but chances are your system needs to be updated also, as my guess is that you maybe talking about HDV content and 3 streams of HDV @1080 will really tax your CPU more than a Graid Pro.

I am of the belief that FW was great for SD but in an HD world Fibre or SATA is the only way to go.





gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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walter biscardi
Re: G-RAID Pro
on Nov 30, 2006 at 12:58:03 am

[Pipito] "I need at least 40/mbs. Im editing DVCPRO HD 1080/60i I need realtime playback on at least 3 streams. Anyone tested this?"

You need more than 40mb/s to get true realtime with 3 streams. Look to SATA or Fibre Channel for those requirements. FW800 isn't going to hold up very long with multistream HD.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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Bob Zelin
Re: G-RAID Pro
on Nov 30, 2006 at 2:21:41 am

Everyone here is correct. I too am testing the Cal-Digit, and it in fact, does rock. Let me put it simply, it BLOWS THE DOORS off of any firewire product ever developed. There are other SATA solutions on the market as well, that will work for you too. I don't know what type of computer you have, but if it's a new MAC Pro, and you have no money, you can stick two SATA drives inside the computer, and you will get dramatically better performance than any firewire array.

Bob Zelin


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walter biscardi
Re: G-RAID Pro
on Nov 30, 2006 at 3:09:37 am

[Bob Zelin] "Everyone here is correct. I too am testing the Cal-Digit, and it in fact, does rock. Let me put it simply, it BLOWS THE DOORS off of any firewire product ever developed."

Yeah, that's the biggest surprise for me. I'm testing the 1.5TB unit which is just two 750GB drives striped together and it's just killing my other SATA units and the FW800 units. So we're going for the full 3.7TB model for our main suite. Really impressed with the product.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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David Issko
Question Walter,
on Nov 30, 2006 at 9:35:15 pm

Can I just clarify that you have purchased the S2VR HD (that one is the 3.75Tb unit) for your main suite and you will be working with HD - up to 10 bit uncompressed on these drives? Or is your purchase just for SD?

As you are probably aware from my previous posts, I am learning what I can about HD before upgrading my suite to include HDV and most probably HDCAM.

I see that Caldigit has the 10 drive S2VR Pro as well. Have you tested this unit? I am interested in the Caldigit Pro but if fibre channel (say Ciprico Mediavault 4210) would be better suited to HDCAM, please advise as best you can.

Can you also please chime in here Bob, as I know you have great installation experience. What are your suggestions please?

Anyone else with Caldigit or Mediavault experience or any other HDDs that will handle at least 2 streams of 10 bit uncompressed HD.

Oh yes, Bob, if you answer, be nice!!! (thanks)

David Issko
Thanks very much


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walter biscardi
Re: Question Walter,
on Nov 30, 2006 at 9:43:29 pm

[David Issko] "Can I just clarify that you have purchased the S2VR HD (that one is the 3.75Tb unit) for your main suite and you will be working with HD - up to 10 bit uncompressed on these drives? Or is your purchase just for SD?"

Yes, that's the one I just ordered today and will be editing pretty much 100% HD on that unit.

[David Issko] "I see that Caldigit has the 10 drive S2VR Pro as well. Have you tested this unit? I am interested in the Caldigit Pro but if fibre channel (say Ciprico Mediavault 4210) would be better suited to HDCAM, please advise as best you can."

That's the unit I was originally going to consider purchasing but it is not available yet, probably not for another month. I'm not sure why they have it on the website when it's not available. Ciprico is an outstanding company as well. We had a fluke issue with an array earlier this year, but I would highly recommend them.





Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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David Issko
Re: Question Walter,
on Nov 30, 2006 at 10:13:02 pm

Thanks very much Walter.

As for the Pro, no wonder my supplier doesn't have pricing for it. Now I know why as he went away to check but never came back to me. Oh well, my HD purchase time line is not until around Jan/Feb 07 anyway so the Pro might be available then.

I read about your misfortune with 2 (i think you mentioned 2) Mediavault units failing in quick succession.

All the best with the Caldigit unit.

David Issko


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walter biscardi
Re: Question Walter,
on Nov 30, 2006 at 10:17:47 pm

[David Issko] "I read about your misfortune with 2 (i think you mentioned 2) Mediavault units failing in quick succession."

No it wasn't two units that failed. It was a single unit with 2 issues at a very bad time in our production cycle. Again, a major fluke and I would still highly recommend Ciprico arrays. I would have gone back and purchased a new 4210 right now if I didn't know about the Cal Digit units. Quite honestly, if you want multi-stream, 10bit uncompressed HD, talk to Ciprico, I was getting almost 500mb/s on the 4210. It's a heck of an array.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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Bob Zelin
Re: Question Walter,
on Nov 30, 2006 at 10:33:38 pm

The Cal Digit S2VR will absolutely do 10 bit uncompressed HD, in the 5 drive configuration. Other manufacturers, like Sonnet, will do uncompressed HD with 10 drives (as will the CalDigit), but if budget is a concern, the CalDigit is the only 5 drive SATA II array that will perform at these speeds.
With that said, most people are dealing with DVCProHD, HDV, DNx220, and other compressed HD formats, that do not require the 230mb/sec that the 5 drive CAL Digit S2VR will do. If you put two 5 drive bays onto a SATA card (Sonnet or CalDigit) and stripe all 10 together RAID 0, you will get over 450mb/sec - far exceeding what 1080i HD-SDI uncompressed demands. YES, this is dramatically faster than a 14 drive Apple XServe RAID.

The Ciprico HUGE Systems fibre channel arrays are amazing, the customer support is superior, and the only bad thing I have to say about them is that they cost more than the SATA products on the market today.

Bob Zelin (I couldn't think of anything nasty to say, but I will work on it).


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walter biscardi
Re: Question Walter,
on Nov 30, 2006 at 10:57:58 pm

[Bob Zelin] "With that said, most people are dealing with DVCProHD, HDV, DNx220, and other compressed HD formats, that do not require the 230mb/sec that the 5 drive CAL Digit S2VR will do."

Absolutely you don't "need" the extra speed of these drives for compressed HD formats, but as you and I both know, the more speed, the more RT you get in your work. I could keep editing DVCPro HD on FW800 drives, but I really like getting 3 Way CC, Levels and Broadcast Safe filtering all in realtime while editing. The only way to do that is to get faster drives.

Also, the more overhead you have on speed, the less likely you are to get dropped frames and all kinds of other performance issues that plague so many systems on these forums. You don't "need" the 500hp Mustang, but it sure makes getting around town a lot more fun!

230mb/s is just awesome for a 5 drive array and at the price point of these units, we're able to add storage and additional HD support to our shop so it's a win / win.

But honestly if I was doing nothing but 10bit HD Uncompressed all day, everyday, I'd spend the money on Ciprico and bring the 4210 back into the shop.



Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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David Issko
Thanks Bob
on Nov 30, 2006 at 11:10:41 pm

How absolutely rude you are :)

Thanks very much for great info so quickly. You good teacher, me read post very CAREFULLY and understand.
Also good to know about choices.

Cheers

David Issko


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David Issko
Thanks Walter
on Nov 30, 2006 at 11:28:07 pm

You have been most helpful
David Issko


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gary adcock
Re: Question Walter,
on Dec 1, 2006 at 3:03:49 pm

[David Issko] "I am interested in the Caldigit Pro but if fibre channel (say Ciprico Mediavault 4210) would be better suited to HDCAM, please advise as best you can."

fibre is definitely the way to go if you are doing 1080 uncompressed, My 4105 failed and I was told the parts are no longer available for the 2 year old unit. I am very pleased with my G-Speed 4 gig fibre and I am getting better than 200 mgs a sec in RAID 3.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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walter biscardi
Re: Question Walter,
on Dec 1, 2006 at 3:15:13 pm

[gary adcock] "fibre is definitely the way to go if you are doing 1080 uncompressed, My 4105 failed and I was told the parts are no longer available for the 2 year old unit. I am very pleased with my G-Speed 4 gig fibre and I am getting better than 200 mgs a sec in RAID 3."

The Cal Digit Pro actually will be Fibre Channel. I'm surprised Ciprico did not offer you some other options with the 4105 for replacement.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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David Issko
Fibre Channel....
on Dec 2, 2006 at 3:11:36 am

Now that will be very interesting to see how it compares with other FC driven units.

Thanks Walter

David Issko


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JeremyG
Re: Question Walter,
on Dec 1, 2006 at 3:43:05 pm

[gary adcock] "My 4105 failed and I was told the parts are no longer available for the 2 year old unit."

?

So that's it? Nothing? No replacement?



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gary adcock
Re: Question Walter,
on Dec 1, 2006 at 4:25:30 pm


Unfortunate as it was, it was during the change over from Huge and our buddy Don M had not yet joined Ciprico at that point.

Funny how everyone thinks we (as leaders) do not have the same issues with hardware and software that everyone else does (as I battle thru conversion to a new intel laptop- which is not as easy as it should have been)

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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JeremyG
Re: Question Walter,
on Dec 1, 2006 at 4:49:37 pm

It's not the issue that surprises me, it's the lack of support. The 4105 (and all Huge/Ciprico products) have 3 year warranties and it bums out that it wasn't honored, as I stare at my 4105 that is humming away faithfully pushing pixels around.

Wouldn't it be nice, though, if you as leaders were abstained from all issues?


Jeremy


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ronnyron
Re: Question Walter,
on Dec 13, 2006 at 5:20:07 am

I'm a litttle late on this...crazy busy, plus 2 vacations. Anyway, CalDigit is great! I built a second edit system (KonaLH) and installed a S2VR HD. Delivered 5 shows for network, loaded 20+ hours of DVCPRO50 and ran the system for about 3 weeks straight--in some cases day and night with multiple editors. The drives are a work horse...dare I say right up there with the Medea and Huge.

I have uncompressed HD footage that I ran a loop test with, and the drives had no problem with them.

Excellent price, solid product. I've had it for a little over 2 months now.

Ron


RIOT Productions
G5, Kona LH, Atto UL4D, FCP5, QT 7.


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gary adcock
Re: G-RAID Pro
on Nov 30, 2006 at 3:24:20 am

[Bob Zelin] "Everyone here is correct. I too am testing the Cal-Digit, and it in fact, does rock. Let me put it simply, it BLOWS THE DOORS off of any firewire product ever developed."

SATA is what FW always wanted to be, without the daisy chain issue I have my request for an eval unit is on hold until I am in my office and have the time to spend testing.

For now I still live on fibre, and carry my GSpeed array around the country regularly.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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Don McDonell
Re: G-RAID Pro
on Dec 1, 2006 at 10:25:00 pm

Hello Gary,

I'm sorry and dismayed to discover you had problems getting service for your 4105. Regardless of the timing of your issue, that should never have happened, and will NOT happen again under my watch! If your problem still exists, please call or email me and it will be resolved immediately. We still offer the 4105 and support it for the full 3 year warranty period, and beyond.

Best regards,
Don McDonell
Ciprico


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gary adcock
Re: G-RAID Pro
on Dec 2, 2006 at 3:14:41 pm

[Don McDonell] "Regardless of the timing of your issue, that should never have happened, and will NOT happen again under my watch! "

Hey Buddy, I said, you were not yet on the Ciprico team at that point,unfortunately by the time you joined I had already cannibalized the unit to fix a friends that was out of warranty.

This brings me to comment on how all hardware, regardless of the manufacturer is subject to issues and failure. It is only a matter of time before some problem arises. I had my 4105 fibre controller fail, bunches of Lacie drives bite the dust, and I have had to have switches replaced on multiple
G-Raids drives. The difference is I am pushing hardware to it's limits all the time so having a single hard drive fail every couple of weeks is normal in my office and I stay prepared.

Just this week I have had to replace my 11 month old laptop with a NEW Intel because the SATA controller on the old logic board just failed, and the cost to repair was only about $500 less than replacing the entire laptop.( and no I have never purchased applecare) Thankfully I have an incredible relationship with TEKSERVE in New York and they were able to get a new machine to me overnight. (I am in NYC so much that they have become a local dealer for me)

IT is the relationships we foster in this business that keep us afloat. It is working with Value Added Resellers that remember who you are and what you are doing that offer the best service and support. Some nameless person on the other end of that 800 number is not going to remember (or care) what your setup is or even what you do.

That real live person at the dealer you work with on your hardware purchase has a vested interest in keeping you happy, it is also someone that can step in on your behalf when real problems do arise. Not to mention it is a good feeling to walk into your local shop and have people greet you by name.

--Try it, and find out that your dealer can and will support you many times in ways you will not believe, but only if you support them - think of it as frequent "buyer" miles.




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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