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Recommended preservation quality SD capture card

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chimpybits
Recommended preservation quality SD capture card
on Nov 21, 2006 at 8:33:52 pm

Hello,
I'm wanting to migrate 3/4", BetaSP, and DigiBeta sources to a "preservation" quality codec/file. Ideally, I would like 4:4:4, 10-bit, YUV. Of these 3 specs I think the most important is the compression. The Kona 3 looks good, but doesn't do analog capture. The Kona LSe looks more suitable but appears not to be 4:4:4. Blackmagic doesn't appear to have anything suitable. The Kona 3 with the Kona Io may be suitable, but frankly I don't know. Recommendations? Suggestions?



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Bob Zelin
Re: Recommended preservation quality SD capture card
on Nov 21, 2006 at 10:47:23 pm

The Kona 3 is used by everyone, including AVID for the Nitris for 4:4:4 input. 3/4" will look like crap, no matter what you do with it. You take the SDI output of your Digi Beta, and go into the HD input of the Kona 3, and it will upconvert this signal to anything you want - but it will be in a 720p or 1080i format - it ain't 4:4:4. For Beta, simply play the tapes out of your Digi Beta VTR, the same process - SDI upconverted to HD 10 bit.

SO, how are you going to store this massive archive.

Bob ZElin


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chimpybits
Re: Recommended preservation quality SD capture card
on Nov 21, 2006 at 11:07:21 pm

Hi Bob,

I'm not concerned with "improving" or upconverting any footage; I want to retain as faithfully as possible the information that is there. I want to minimize any errors, compression artifacts, or scaling to the transcoded footage. The intent is to transfer the content to a newer and more stable carrier while preserving the technical nature of the content, using the best available hardware to minimise the signal deterioration usually connected with the transfer of the content. Yes, I expect some of the footage to be quite poor (some are early 70's, degraded 3/4" tapes), but regardless I want that information! This is in short a digital preservation job.

The Kona 3 looks to be a good choce for the DigiBeta material, but not for the analog material as this card is SDI only ...

I will be capturing to SATA Raids and storing each asset either in multiiple offline SATA drives or in an external SATA Raid.

Mark



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Bob Zelin
Re: Recommended preservation quality SD capture card
on Nov 22, 2006 at 12:04:06 am

you can play back any Beta SP tape in any Digi Beta VTR, and it will convert it to SDI for you. If for some reason this is not acceptable, you can get the AJA HD10AVA, which will convert the analog component video to SDI, and embed the analog audio right into the SDI stream. The output of the AJA HD10AVA can be plugged directly into the SDI input of the Kona 3.

As for analog composite, another excellent suggestion is the AJA I/O box. This box will convert the analog composite signal to SDI. It will also embed the analog audio into the SDI stream. This can be put directly into the Kona 3. If you choose to get the AJA I/O, then you DO NOT need to purchase the HD10AVA, as the I/O will do the same job of encoding the analog component Y R-Y B-Y signal to SDI (with embedded audio if you like) - you then take the SDI out of the AJA I/O, and go right into the Kona 3.

Is this acceptable to you, or would you like other suggestions ?

Bob Zelin


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Arniepix
Re: Recommended preservation quality SD capture card
on Nov 22, 2006 at 1:37:01 am

[Bob Zelin] "3/4" will look like crap, no matter what you do with it."

Why Bob, are you suggesting that garbage in will get you garbage out? ;)

Arnie

Now in post: Peristroika, a film by Slava Tsukerman

http://www.arniepix.com/blog


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David Battistella
Re: Recommended preservation quality SD capture card
on Nov 22, 2006 at 12:55:31 pm



Take a look at Bit Jazz Sheer Video codecs for archiving. I have been using them for years. Lossless, about a third the size of uncompressed. Very efficenet. Totaly QT compatible and fast as well.

David



Peace and Love :)


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chimpybits
Re: Recommended preservation quality SD capture card
on Nov 25, 2006 at 9:38:06 pm

I've been researching SD (standard def) capture further and have learned that the SDI (Serial Digital Interface) 4:4:4 protocol is is an HD spec (called dual-link). In other words, a SD source to a Kona converter (HD10AVA, IO, etc) with Kona 3 card yields a 4:2:2 SD capture. That is why the Kona LSe is 4:2:2 - that is the best native sampling for SD SDI.

However, if one captures the SD footage via the Kona 3 using dual-link SDI the card will upsample the footage to an HD 4:4:4 spec. However, I believe it would scale the footage (though maintaining the aspect ration) in the process. Yes? Is there an option to capture the SD without any scaling (i.e. small image say 640x480 within a 1080 frame)? Then I would crop from there (minding field issues) resulting in an acceptable 4:4:4 SD capture process and file. Is this at all possible? If not, scaling is unacceptable. Instead, I would research the possibility of a turnkey system which digitizes SD analog at 4:4:4 and then barring that will likely accept capturing at 4:2:2 via either the Kona 3 with a Kona converter or via the Kona LSe.

p.s. thanks David for the BitJazz codec which I'm famiiar with. I'm still researching codecs suitable for a preservation project. I suspec I will opt for Animation as it is stable/mature (i.e. likely to be around longer than BitJazz)



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Arniepix
Re: Recommended preservation quality SD capture card
on Nov 25, 2006 at 10:04:02 pm

[chimpybits] "I've been researching SD (standard def) capture further and have learned that the SDI (Serial Digital Interface) 4:4:4 protocol is is an HD spec (called dual-link)"

Dual link is only 1 of 3 different SDI standards, each described by SMPTE. There is also a specific SD standard. The Kona 3 can provide all 3 types of SDI in and out, and will also cross convert between them.

Arnie

Now in post: Peristroika, a film by Slava Tsukerman

http://www.arniepix.com/blog


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chimpybits
Re: Recommended preservation quality SD capture card
on Nov 25, 2006 at 10:12:51 pm

Yes that is right - dual link though is the only one that is 4:4:4 (as gathered from WIkipedia and discussion with Aja). Hence, there is no SD 4:4:4 available for any SDI card (i.e. all Kona cards).



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David Battistella
Re: Recommended preservation quality SD capture card
on Nov 26, 2006 at 12:07:29 am



FYI,


As long as Quicktime is around Bitjazz will be around.

If you want to store files that are four to six times larger. That's fine too. PNG is alos a nice alternative to Annimation and Photo J-peg at 100% is also a 4:4:4 codec and holds up very well.

The beauty of the Bitjaz archive it that if you drop it into a SHeer timeline you can use it right away. You will always have to render the annimation codec.

So you then have the double storage issue of the annimation codec plus the Render files you need to generate to actually use it.

PLease stay tuned for a very in depth article on the COW covering the use of these codecs in various workflows. ONe thing to understand Bitjazz and Animation (same quality)

David



Peace and Love :)


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chimpybits
Re: Recommended preservation quality SD capture card
on Nov 26, 2006 at 12:49:35 am

Hi David,

This codec discussion is a side topic from my posted thread. I've worked with all the codecs you mention and in short we will be giving this careful consideration. Yes, QuickTime includes all old codecs for future legacy purposes, but they do become obsolete as workflows/systems move away from some codecs (Video codec anyone?). BitHJazz is a very impressive codec yes (as described here http://codecs.onerivermedia.com/).

My main concern presently is working how to capture 4:4:4 SD.



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David Battistella
Re: Recommended preservation quality SD capture card
on Nov 26, 2006 at 2:14:23 am



Find something that will capture photo J-peg at 100%.

I think the only way you could capture this would be to a 4:4:4 codec with drives fast enough to sustain the data rates needed. I so not know of a Dual link SD deck.

Isn't 10 BIT uncompressed 4:2:2 an adequate capture vehicle with a render to the 4:4:4 codecs.

Why the need to capture 4:4:4 in SD?

What's the application?

David



Peace and Love :)


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chimpybits
Re: Recommended preservation quality SD capture card
on Nov 26, 2006 at 2:36:16 am

Hi David,

My thread states my purpose re: 4:4:4 SD - in short, this is a digital preservation job. There isn't much point rendering a 4:2:2 capture to 4:4:4. The codec and drives aren't the issue. The issue is finding a system/means (i.e. card) to capture 4:4:4 SD.

Mark




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Bob Zelin
Re: Recommended preservation quality SD capture card-RANT
on Nov 26, 2006 at 8:21:27 pm

you people are all making me sick. This conversation of 4:4:4 is no different than conversations that I used to have years ago in the linear days when producers would insist that Digi Beta VTR's were not good enough, and you had to use Sony D1 machines. Well, what do you think happened to all those D1 tapes, huh? Some good that did, preserving all that "truly uncompressed 8 bit SDI material" in D1 format. Stop this nonsense with putting 3/4" on a 4:4:4 format. Capture it like a normal person, and stop driving yourself crazy. You want a format that will last for the next 100 years - transfer it to 35mm FILM, and you can be sure that someone will be able to transfer that to the new "holigraphic 8k" format.

Bob Zelin




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David Battistella
Re: Recommended preservation quality SD capture card-RANT
on Nov 26, 2006 at 8:36:36 pm


Bob,

Thanks you so much for piping in. Once again, you've said it.

David



Peace and Love :)


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