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Kona 3 and Sony DSR-45 VTR

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Shari225
Kona 3 and Sony DSR-45 VTR
on Nov 20, 2006 at 6:55:32 am

Hello, I just installed Kona 3 in my MacPro Dual-Core Intel Xeon. My intent is to slowly upgrade to HD, but right now all I'm working in is SD. I cannot figure out how to connect the breakout bar to my Sony DSR-45 VTR, nor am I getting the little Aquos EDTV monitor to get the signal from Final Cut Pro using the Kona 3 configurations. (I used a DeckLink Pro on a G5 before this, and all was well.) Working with Kona 3, while potentially is a dream come true, right now is very frustrating, and I've been down a week now. When I do go into FCP, I'm getting a "general error" alert, but all seems well. FCP can read the VTR for Log and Capture, but nothng shows on the TV monitor except color bars. The computer displays are showing everything as usual.

Here is the hook up so far:
With the Kona 3 -
Kona 3 correctly installed in the Mac (slot 3 and upgraded the driver)
Break-out bar cabled to card via the Mac - both with DB cable and SDI.
Three BNC component cables (RGB) going from break-out bar analog component outputs for monitor to a little Aquos EDTV
L & R Mackie HR 824 speakers hooked up via RCA plugs to breaker-bar RCA inputs. (I can't control the volume except in iTunes, otherwise it's very loud!)

With the Sony DSR-45 VTR -
RS-422 cable attached with break-outbar for control of VTR. It works fine.
Firewire running from VTR to the Mac. This works fine too.

I'm stressing out a bit, and could sure use your help finishing up the cabling. I've got to get rolling on some video color correction. If I can get the monitor going and control the audio, without taking that card out, I'd be one very happy camper!

Thank you for your time and trouble,
Shari


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David Smith
Re: Kona 3 and Sony DSR-45 VTR
on Nov 20, 2006 at 4:57:56 pm

Shari,

Please provide more information as to the settings you've chosen both in FCP and in the Kona Control Panel, then folks will have a better chance of helping you.

On a whim, look under the FCP View Menu and see what is selected under External Video. FCP has a habit of turning external video to "Off" when settings are changed.


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Shari225
Re: Kona 3 and Sony DSR-45 VTR
on Nov 20, 2006 at 6:20:50 pm

Thanks for your response. Here are the settings:

Kona Control Panel
Inputs: SDI 1 (no video) Input Select: AES/EBU (BNC), Map Channels: 1-2 to 1-2
Format: 525i29.97 (both primary and secondary) Conversion Up-Anamorphic Down - Letterbox SD to SD - off
Digital Out: Both outputs primary 525i29.97
Analog Out: Primary 525i29.97 Analog format: Component (SMTE/EBU N10 Monitor Audio: Ch 1-2
Default Kona Output: Test Pattern Test Pattern: Color Bars
Genlock: Freerun
DS Keyer: Kownstream Keyer Mode Off Graphic File: Load File Matte Color: grey
Setup: Video 7.5 IRE Audio Lock Input Audio Gain to Unity checked Analog Audio Monitor Level +24 dBu FSD

FCP
View > External Video: All frames
Audio/Video Settings
Sequence Preset: DV NTSC 48 kHz
Capture Preset DV NTSC 48 kHz
Device Control Preset: FireWire NTSC
Video Playback AJA Kona 720p60 RGBA (1280 x 720)
Audio Playback: AJA Kona

(I've since recabled the audio playback to run from my Mac to a receiver via optical cable to the speakers, using the receiver's headphone jack at the output. Not optimum, but at least I can control the sound level. FCP is on built-in Digital Output with this configuration.)

Also, I'm concerned about synching, and wonder if I need a device to secure Genlock.

Thank you,
Shari


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Bob Zelin
Re: Kona 3 and Sony DSR-45 VTR
on Nov 20, 2006 at 7:48:22 pm

Shari -
you should not be doing this by yourself. I will answer what I can -


but right now all I'm working in is SD. I cannot figure out how to connect the breakout bar to my Sony DSR-45 VTR, nor am I getting the little Aquos EDTV monitor to get the signal from Final Cut Pro using the Kona 3 configurations.

REPLY - you should have purchased an AJA I/O or Kona LH, not a Kona 3. There is no analog component input to the AJA Kona 3, so you cannot get the DSR-45 into this Kona 3 board, unless you use Firewire, which is silly. You could buy a AJA Analog to SDI converter, but this would cost you as much as an AJA I/O LA box (which is what you should have bought in the first place). You get your Aquos HD monitor to see the signal from the Kona 3 by taking the Out Y Out Pb Out Pr of your AJA K box, and sending it into the analog HD component inputs of your Aquos. You then open up the Kona Control Panel (I hope you know what I am talking about), and go to the analog tab, and tell it to downconvert to 525, and you will see your SD image. For now, just for testing, choose an SD easy setup (like 8 bit SD uncompressed, not HD), and select COLOR BARS, and you will see the bar image on your TV monitor.





(I used a DeckLink Pro on a G5 before this, and all was well.) Working with Kona 3, while potentially is a dream come true, right now is very frustrating, and I've been down a week now. When I do go into FCP, I'm getting a "general error" alert, but all seems well. FCP can read the VTR for Log and Capture, but nothng shows on the TV monitor except color bars. The computer displays are showing everything as usual.

REPLY - when you say that FCP can read the VTR for Log and Capture - I have no idea of how you are doing this - are you using DV25? The Kona 3 cannot accept an analog component image, but if you capture in DV25, and then select another type of SD output for the Kona 3 with the EASY SETUPS, it will convert this to output the correct signals thru the Kona 3. If you don't know what I am talking about, you need assistance from your sales company.




Here is the hook up so far:
With the Kona 3 -
Kona 3 correctly installed in the Mac (slot 3 and upgraded the driver)
Break-out bar cabled to card via the Mac - both with DB cable and SDI.
Three BNC component cables (RGB) going from break-out bar analog component outputs for monitor to a little Aquos EDTV
L & R Mackie HR 824 speakers hooked up via RCA plugs to breaker-bar RCA inputs. (I can't control the volume except in iTunes, otherwise it's very loud!)

REPLY - you need a MIXER !!!!!! You are not going to adjust these levels via software.



Bob Zelin


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Shari225
Re: Kona 3 and Sony DSR-45 VTR
on Nov 20, 2006 at 11:11:48 pm

Hi Bob,
Thanks for your reply. Believe me, I absolutely do not want to do this alone. I'm in an area, however, where this kind of help is very, very scarce, and those that can help are already swamped with work. I have tried, and would love for someone to come over and help. Creative Cow and people like you are Godsends. I got the Kona 3 with the intent to upgrade gradually. I read that the Kona 3 worked with both SP and HD, so that seemed - at the time - to be a reasonable expense to make.
I have a mixer. A little Mackie 1202-VLZ Pro - 4 XLR outlets. I use it sometimes when I use a shotgun mic on my GL2. It never occured to me to use it on my computer, but of course that's the answer. Thanks for that.
I am somewhat familiar with the Kona 3 control panel, but not enough to set things up readily. With your help, I should have a better handle on that soon.
The DSR -45 is connected to the Mac via firewire, so maybe that's why I can read the VTR on FCP Log & Capture.
I had already hooked up the Out Y Out Pb Out Pr BNC component cables directly to the Aquos Monitor - perhaps I didn't explain that well in my first email. On the analog tab in the Kona controls, I have the primary at 525, and the analog format at component (RGB). Still no picture on the Aquos. The Mac is not detecting the dispay.
The General Error alarm is gone - I don't know why, but I'm grateful.
On the other hand, while I am getting sound on my Mac, FCP is not running the video right now. Nothing is moving on the canvas. Sigh. A new wrinkle.
On the Format for the Kona 3 contol Panel there is an SD to SD option, which I have as off. Is that correct?
This all has to work. Somehow.
Thanks,
Shari


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Bob Zelin
Re: Kona 3 and Sony DSR-45 VTR
on Nov 20, 2006 at 11:38:53 pm

Replies below -

I read that the Kona 3 worked with both SP and HD, so that seemed - at the time - to be a reasonable expense to make.

REPLY - the Kona 3 will output analog component, but it will not INPUT analog component or composite - only SDI, and you dont' have an SDI source.


I have a mixer. A little Mackie 1202-VLZ Pro - 4 XLR outlets. I use it sometimes when I use a shotgun mic on my GL2. It never occured to me to use it on my computer, but of course that's the answer.

REPLY - you MUST go into the 1/4" line inputs, not the XLR inputs. Your speakers get hooked to the CR Mon Outputs (control room monitor) on the back of the mixer.



I am somewhat familiar with the Kona 3 control panel, but not enough to set things up readily. With your help, I should have a better handle on that soon.

REPLY - forget FCP.. Open the Kona control panel, click on the control tab, and select a color bar test pattern. If you can't get a picture on your TV now, you have a problem with the TV. You want Beta Component output Y Pb Pr, not RGB.

DO NOT PROCEED until you can get a color bar signal onto your TV monitor. Until you do, from the control panel test pattern, you are wasting your time. Once this works, you can go into FCP, and select an easy setup for 525, but you will have to use the Kona Control panel to output to your analog TV. AGAIN, you should have purchased a Kona LH or AJA I/O box.



This all has to work. Somehow.

REPLY - I don't know where you bought this, but most times, people HIRE SOMEONE - just like when you want a new toilet - you don't do it yourself - you hire a plumber - when you dont, you get water on the floor (and more than that !).

Bob ZElin



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Shari225
Re: Kona 3 and Sony DSR-45 VTR
on Nov 21, 2006 at 12:34:46 am

I would have loved to hire someone, had I known this was necessary. It was not with the DeckLink Pro. I had no trouble hooking it up. If you advise it, I will be happy to get that Sony HVR-1500 HDV VTR when it comes out in the spring, and/or hire you to help me build a decent set up. But it's right now that I need your help as you can give it. I set myself up for a domino effect, which, while wasn't my intent, seems to be what is happening.

I do get a color bar signal on the monitor, I'm delighted to say. I don't know why the video on FCP canvas isn't working. I have the Sequence and Capture presets as well as the Vieo Playback on AJA Kona 525 8 bit.

Thank you,
Shari



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Don Wilson
Re: Kona 3 and Sony DSR-45 VTR
on Nov 21, 2006 at 1:11:33 am

Who sells this stuff and offers no insight to the final use? This is a diaster waiting to happen with perfectly good gear. As Bob stated, you HAVE to get something to convert analog component (Out of the DSR) to SDI for input. I use my good ol' trusty Io but you need something cheaper and it's out there. Search for component to SDI converter and you'll find several. Print out the operators manual included in the driver package and it will help you understand some of this stuff. Trust us, it works great but you really didn't buy a transition system, you bought an HD Porsche and now must learn to drive stick.



Don Wilson
AmericanaMediaInc.com


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Shari D
Re: Kona 3 and Sony DSR-45 VTR
on Nov 21, 2006 at 1:44:20 am

It looks like Flying Cow might work. It is relatively cheap. I'd like your opinion on it. Is it a good choice for a DSR to SDI converter?
The company I got the Kona 3 from is Markertek. Considering the expense of the card, I was trying to find the lowest price. I carefully read the requirements, and was able to meet them . . . I thought. I didn't know I had to worry about the analog/digital interface.
I'm up to learning how to drive an HD Prosche, with help.
Thanks,
Shari



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Shari225
Re: Kona 3 and Sony DSR-45 VTR
on Nov 21, 2006 at 1:45:12 am

It looks like Flying Cow might work. It is relatively cheap. I'd like your opinion on it. Is it a good choice for a DSR to SDI converter?
The company I got the Kona 3 from is Markertek. Considering the expense of the card, I was trying to find the lowest price. I carefully read the requirements, and was able to meet them . . . I thought. I didn't know I had to worry about the analog/digital interface.
I'm up to learning how to drive an HD Prosche, with help.
Thanks,
Shari



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Bob Zelin
Re: Kona 3 and Sony DSR-45 VTR
on Nov 21, 2006 at 1:54:36 am

Shari -
don't buy the flying cow. This is getting really silly. Markertek will be happy to take back the Kona 3. Get yourself a nice boring AJA I/O box - plug it into your Firewire 400 port on your MAC, and do everything you want to do. It will cost you about $2000, and will work perfectly with your DSR-45. You can also get the Kona LHe, which will do analog component, or SDI, or HD-SDI. But since you have so much analog gear, it's my opinion that you would be better off just getting rid of the Kona 3 for now, and get the full AJA I/O box. This way, you won't have to ask your boss for any more money.

BY THE WAY - what type of storage are you using for this ?

Bob Zelin


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Bob Zelin
Re: Kona 3 and Sony DSR-45 VTR
on Nov 21, 2006 at 1:51:34 am

You write -

It was not with the DeckLink Pro. I had no trouble hooking it up.

I do get a color bar signal on the monitor, I'm delighted to say. I don't know why the video on FCP canvas isn't working. I have the Sequence and Capture presets as well as the Vieo Playback on AJA Kona 525 8 bit.

REPLY - The DeckLink Pro has SDI inputs only, just like the Kona 3 - and no analog component video input for your DSR-45. The Decklink Pro is the WRONG BOARD to use, (you need the Decklink Extreme)- and the Kona 3 was the wrong product for you to buy - you should have purchased an AJA I/O LA, I/O or Kona LH, not the Kona 3, for your application.

You are able to get a color bar signal onto your monitor with the control panel, but I can't even have you simply pass your DSR-45 thru the Kona Control panel, becuase you dont' have an SDI output on the DSR-45. And you could not do this on the Blackmagic Decklink Pro, because it TOO does not have an analog component input.

We can sit here all day and talk about what you can do, and you certainly can output a DV signal out of the Kona 3, but I URGE YOU to scrounge up some money and buy a product that corresponds to your tape machines. A reputable dealer would be happy to exchange your Kona 3 for something else.

The AJA I/O LA will suit your needs perfectly, and costs under $1000. the Blackmagic Decklink Extreme is only $895. And as Don has said, a converter, like the AJA HD10AVA (about $950) will convert your analog component DSR-45 with analog audio into a SDI signal with embedded audio that you can get into your Kona 3 - if you choose to do so.

Once you capture your material (as DV25 using firewire - what a shame), you can go into the Audio/Video settings, and change the playback output tab so it comes out of the Kona.

what is happening here, is that you are unfamiliar with the use of this product - perhaps you mail ordered it - and someone needs to sit with you to show you how to use it. OR you can sit there patiently, go into the Audio/Video Settings menu (provided you have loaded the Kona drivers from your CD or AJA web site), and screw around with all the settings - you will eventually figure out what ones work and what ones don't. The reason this will seem overwhelming for you is that you are dealing with a SDI/HD-SDI product, and want to use it as an analog product, with analog equipment. Becuase of this, it seems very confusing. If you get the audio/video settings playback output correct, and the AJA Kona Control panel correct - you will get your video output.

If you are saying "you know, I should have just bought the Blackmagic product" - if you bought a SDI/HD-SDI product from them, you would suffer the same way, unless you bought the Blackmagic Decklink Extreme - which properly handles analog signals - just like the Kona LH.

Bob Zelin



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Shari225
Re: Kona 3 and Sony DSR-45 VTR
on Nov 21, 2006 at 2:04:32 am

Hi Bob,
I know the Decklink Pro was not the card I needed, which is why I upgraded to the Kona 3. The reason I mentioned the Decklink Pro was to give you a background as to why I was caught unawares by the requirements of the Kona 3. I had hooked up the Decklink Pro to a G5 myself. I just didn't know that there would be a major difference in the interfaces, and was defending my decision to get the Kona 3 to you.

I was wondering - if I bought a Flying Cow interface - would that converter would do the job and allow me to use the Kona 3 with the rest of my equipment?

Shari


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David Smith
Re: Kona 3 and Sony DSR-45 VTR
on Nov 21, 2006 at 3:06:42 am

[Bob Zelin] "Once you capture your material (as DV25 using firewire - what a shame),"

Bob,

Just curious.... since the DSR-45 is a DVCam deck which is playing a DV25 signal, why is taking the file in via Firewire a bad thing? I have an LH board in my system, but if the source is DV or DVCam I'm bringing it in via Firewire. Is it that you feel it would be better to be cutting in SD uncompressed so why not bring it in that way in the first place via analog component?

Regards,
David


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Bob Zelin
Re: Kona 3 and Sony DSR-45 VTR
on Nov 21, 2006 at 4:06:53 am

for Shari -
The Flying Cow is an audio analog to digital/digital to analog converter. It will NOT convert any video signals for you. The AJA K-Box has a built in audio digital/audio converter. If you were to purchase the Flying Cow, it would be useful only to convert your analog audio to digital audio, and you would still not be able to get your analog component video into the Kona 3 SDI input. The Flying Cow is NOT what you want to get - not unless you purchase an additional Video Analog to Digital converter - and with the AJA HD10AVA on the market to do it all - you would have to be crazy to do this.

For Dave -
FIREWIRE SUCKS. Firewire is not a professional way to work. It's great for wedding photographers, and news men in Iraq under fire, but in the real world, working with video signals, that can be patched, routed, analyzed, and use NON DV25 Codecs are the way to work. The DSR45 has a WONDERFUL RS422 interface which makes the deck respond like a normal VTR, not like a piece of CRAP like the DSR-11 or HVRM25U. Companies like AJA, Blackmagic, Aurora, Convergent Design, Miranda, AVID and even little guys like Canopus SAVE US from the nightmare known as Firewire. Products like the Sony HVR-1500 are coming out to SAVE US, to keep those HDV users from slitting their wrists being stuck with firewire interfaces. If you feel that working with a firewire interface is as wonderful as working with a Beta UVW-1800 for example, then we are living on two different planets - and apparantly every manufacturer (Sony Professional, Panasonic Professional - even JVC) is living on a different planet too.

Bob Zelin


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Shari225
Re: Kona 3 and Sony DSR-45 VTR
on Nov 21, 2006 at 6:21:27 am

Hi Bob,
When I checked as to where I can get the AJA HD10AVA, I found there is a store that also supports what they sell, helps lay out systems, and provides technical support, about 13 miles away from me at Advanced Systems Group in Emeryville. So I'll give them a call tomorrow, and do what I have to do to get things working again.
Thanks again for your help,
Shari


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Shari225
Re: Kona 3 and Sony DSR-45 VTR
on Nov 21, 2006 at 6:02:56 am

Hi David,
I got curious too. Here is what is posted on the Markertek Online store:
Why Choose HD-SDI over IEEE1394 FireWire?
While the HDV cameras and decks always support a IEEE1394 (aka FireWire connection) not all non-linear editing systems can accept the HDV signal through such a connection. If a non-linear editing system can accept the IEEE1394 signal, the footage can be ingested in its native, highly compressed state. While this seems like a simple solution for post-production, it means that the footage stays in the compressed Long GOP MPEG2 structure in which it was recorded and this structure can be incredibly processor intensive for most non-linear computers to negotiate. The first benefit when ingesting HDV material through an analog to HD-SDI conversion versus ingesting via IEEE1394 for post production is that the structure of the signal will be brought in as an I-Frame based structure common to the non-linear editor as opposed to the HDV's native Long GOP MPEG2 structure, which may prove more difficult to edit.

Additionally, what if the post-production process demands that the HDV acquisition be delivered as a finished product on HD formats such as Panasonic D5, DVCProHD or Sony HDCam? Working with the compressed HDV material would be akin to working with DV natively for SD broadcast; less than ideal. Certain post-production processes would be better performed in a 10 bit (or even 8 bit) 4:2:2 color space than in the 8 bit 4:2:0 color space that is the domain of the compressed HDV format. If the non-linear editing system could ingest via HD-SDI using the AJA HD10AVA converter's HD-SDI output, then digitizing to an uncompressed codec might be a better choice for tasks like color correction and compositing.

I thought this was quite informative. Bob must be an engineer - you can always tell an engineer, but you can't tell them much! :-)
Shari


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David Smith
Re: Kona 3 and Sony DSR-45 VTR
on Nov 21, 2006 at 12:04:37 pm

[Shari225] "I got curious too. Here is what is posted on the Markertek Online store:
Why Choose HD-SDI over IEEE1394 FireWire?........"


Yes that makes perfect sense when talking about HDV, but your DSR-45 is not an HDV deck, and it's DV codec is not a GOP format.

Glad to hear you found a retailer who will help you set up your system. That seems like the best way for you to go and having someone close by will be well worth the extra cost.

Regards,
David


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