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Thoughts on Synthetic Aperture?

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walter biscardi
Thoughts on Synthetic Aperture?
on Nov 16, 2006 at 2:19:37 am

I posted in the FCP forum as well but thought I would ask over here too.

Anyone out there using the Standalone Color Finesse App with Final Cut Pro? We're having so many problems with Final Touch HD and XML I'm looking for alternatives and never noticed that Color Finesse has a version that takes XML from FCP like Final Touch.

Are you happy with the CC tools or do you still feel like you're missing elements? I did download the trial version to test out but would love to hear from folks already using it as well. Thanks!


Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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Deadhead
Re: Thoughts on Synthetic Aperture?
on Nov 16, 2006 at 4:41:14 am

Walter I was going to suggest this to you.

WHile I have not played with any recent SA products, a clients system I used to use often had
the Color Finesse plug in and I thought it worked quite well.


Believe it or not I really do like the plug in route rather than a stand alone app requiring XML.

I h


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walter biscardi
Re: Thoughts on Synthetic Aperture?
on Nov 16, 2006 at 1:12:07 pm

[Deadhead] "
Believe it or not I really do like the plug in route rather than a stand alone app requiring XML."


The only thing I like about the standalone route now that I've used Final Touch is that the app automatically switches the interface to the current shot being used. With FCP you need to constantly double click the clip into the Viewer to bring up the filter to work on a shot. That's one area where Final Touch shines in that it's much faster and intuitive to simply select the shot and tweak rather than select a shot, double click it, select the Filters tab.

I did download the SA trial version and I have to say it's incredibly slow on our Mac Pro. It's faster to use the 3 Way CC in FCP.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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Deadhead
Re: Thoughts on Synthetic Aperture?
on Nov 16, 2006 at 1:40:43 pm

Walter,

Can;t you set the viewer to "open" and click the filters tab, then any shot the playhead is over will open in viewer
with the filter tab exposed?

I seem to remember doing this.


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walter biscardi
Re: Thoughts on Synthetic Aperture?
on Nov 16, 2006 at 1:45:46 pm

[Deadhead] "Can;t you set the viewer to "open" and click the filters tab, then any shot the playhead is over will open in viewer
with the filter tab exposed?

I seem to remember doing this."


Been so long since I used that feature I completely forgot about it. You are correct.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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Timecode Multimedia
Re: Thoughts on Synthetic Aperture?
on Nov 16, 2006 at 1:41:39 pm

Back in the day we used Color Finesse to provide a higher level of color grading than FCP three-way color correction.
This was Color Finesse 1.0 and it was bad. Slow, buggy, no output to monitor unless you had Echo Fire(eben with it still buggy), but
still was better than Apple's color corrector.

It got so painful to work with CF that we started looking for an alternative. Then Color Finesse was announced at NAB 2005
and it took a full year to be released. I remember we waited and waited and waited and kept calling and calling and calling over
moths to Synth Apert office and they kept saying in "two to three weeks" every single time. We got tired of it.

At that point we had heard of FinalTouch, and although we had to purchase graphic cards and extra second display just to run
the tester, we fell in love with it and switch right away. By the time Color Finesse 2 was out we were full on FinalTouch. Speed did
make a difference.

- From time to time I read posts about it, and it seems like a plugin for AE than an app to work with FCP.
- How about Irida's SpeedGrade? I'd like to look into it as a back up.
- Another question is... can CF work with Tangent Devices?. I've tried the JL Cooper and it is not "there". CF has a bundle with it.

If anyone tries CF, please let us know.



Stuart Ferreyra
Timecode Multimedia
President
Santa Monica, CA 90025
http://www.timecodemultimedia.com


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Mike Most
Re: Thoughts on Synthetic Aperture?
on Nov 16, 2006 at 4:31:42 pm

I assume you already know that SpeedGrade costs approx. $29,000 per seat and requires an NVidia Quadro FX card?


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walter biscardi
Re: Thoughts on Synthetic Aperture?
on Nov 16, 2006 at 4:32:56 pm

[Mike Most] "I assume you already know that SpeedGrade costs approx. $29,000 per seat and requires an NVidia Quadro FX card?"

That's equal to Silicon Color's 2k price, well actually it's $25k. So they only have the one version, not an HD version at around $5k like Final Touch?

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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Timecode Multimedia
Re: Thoughts on Synthetic Aperture?
on Nov 16, 2006 at 6:04:10 pm

I talked to a sales rep yesterday. Irida's will have the same sale structure as FinalTouch does (did).
SD - HD - 2K. The prices have not been set yet (I believe), but I should know soon. A test drive would not be bad.

If you were to get a 2K feature film job, you'd almost recup the investment. I do not think the learning
curve would be as difficult as going from FCP 3-way to FinalTouch. As many of us would go FT to SG.

Something to consider...

Stuart Ferreyra
Timecode Multimedia
President
Santa Monica, CA 90025
http://www.timecodemultimedia.com


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Timecode Multimedia
Re: Thoughts on Synthetic Aperture?
on Nov 16, 2006 at 6:15:15 pm

I just checked on the pricing. Iridas released the HD SpeedGrade version
for 9,999 EUR or $12,812 US at suggested price. By the time all is set and done
it could cost around $10,000.

Hope this helps...


Stuart Ferreyra
Timecode Multimedia
President
Santa Monica, CA 90025
http://www.timecodemultimedia.com


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walter biscardi
Re: Thoughts on Synthetic Aperture?
on Nov 16, 2006 at 6:56:16 pm

[Timecode Multimedia] "I just checked on the pricing. Iridas released the HD SpeedGrade version
for 9,999 EUR or $12,812 US at suggested price. By the time all is set and done
it could cost around $10,000.

Hope this helps..."


Thanks Stuart! Well, hopefully they'll bring it more to $4,995 to match the current price of Final Touch HD and yes, your earlier suggestion of a test drive would certainly be warranted. I will definitely look in to them.

In the meantime I received a very simple solution on the Silicon Color forum for our XML issue. Simply Save the Project first after it's done rendering before Exporting the XML. So far it's worked on two projects. This is why I love and support the Creative Cow communities! A little thing like that has saved me probably 4 days of work re-CC'ing the episodes.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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David Battistella
Re: Thoughts on Synthetic Aperture?
on Nov 16, 2006 at 7:12:23 pm



This has been a great thread.

I wonder what the plans are with the Silicon Color Purchase. I wonder if this will become:
1. An add on Color Corrector to FCP,
2. Stand alone APPLE app
3. A Bundle with FC EXTREME.

It's hard to say, but it looks like Apple is lining FCP up against the most high end work stations with Shake, Motion and now his powerfull CC tool.

I like the ONE RENDER, no import export approach to a plug in based module, but Final Touch could be a serious stand alone app when it is fully intgrated (like if they built conforming and recapturing right in to the app).

The big drag is all of this duplicated media. It would be nice to see a non destructive approach to color correction as they do with Audio in soundtrack, just stacking layers and effects in history and no need for renders. (I know that it means making everything Real Time, but it is just an awful fact that you have to capture a terabyte, then render a terabyte to output a show. It doubles all of the storage requirements.

Sure, storage is cheap, but time is more valuable and if the machines could push out these TIMELINES in realtime instead of just the shot for shot GPU appraoch, it would be a much more effiecient appraoch.

David



Peace and Love :)


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Timecode Multimedia
Re: Thoughts on Synthetic Aperture?
on Nov 16, 2006 at 11:29:43 pm

Plus the reconform issue will be easier. I have not found a nice way to tell a client "lock picture
before we start any color correction because we can't just change the timeline in FCP and
automatically color correct your change in FT" That is a big issue, unless you guys know a
method I am not aware of.

Some of these crazy clients want to make changes all the way before the last second of mastering to tape.
I think that is the biggest draw back with FT right now.

A stand alone FinalTouch app with automatic updates according to your timeline in FCP would be awesome!

Stuart Ferreyra
Timecode Multimedia
President
Santa Monica, CA 90025
http://www.timecodemultimedia.com


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David Battistella
Re: Thoughts on Synthetic Aperture?
on Nov 17, 2006 at 1:51:08 am



This all comes back to the inferior FCP Media Manager and the "not so striaght ahead" approach to reconenecting media files in FCP. The program still gets ithcy if it doesn't see the media it was originally given.

David



Peace and Love :)


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walter biscardi
Re: Thoughts on Synthetic Aperture?
on Nov 17, 2006 at 2:54:46 am

[Timecode Multimedia] "Plus the reconform issue will be easier. I have not found a nice way to tell a client "lock picture
before we start any color correction because we can't just change the timeline in FCP and
automatically color correct your change in FT" That is a big issue, unless you guys know a
method I am not aware of."


That's easy, depending on how many shots you have. I just pull the new shots out into a new timeline, shoot that over to FT via XML and bring the shots back to FCP. Re-insert the newly CC'd shots in the timeline and master.

With Apple now in control of the app, expect to see much tighter integration of the two and I'm sure this very type of issue will be addressed.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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Arniepix
Re: Thoughts on Synthetic Aperture?
on Nov 17, 2006 at 3:53:48 am

[walter biscardi] "With FCP you need to constantly double click the clip into the Viewer to bring up the filter to work on a shot."

Set your ganging to "Open" and the shot will open in the viewer when the play head is over it in your timeline.

Arnie

Now in post: Peristroika, a film by Slava Tsukerman

http://www.arniepix.com/blog


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walter biscardi
Re: Thoughts on Synthetic Aperture?
on Nov 17, 2006 at 5:02:43 am

[Arniepix] "Set your ganging to "Open" and the shot will open in the viewer when the play head is over it in your timeline."

Yeah, Wayne Carey reminded me of that feature over on the FCP forum. Totally forgot that was even there. Thanks!

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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ronnyron
Re: Thoughts on Synthetic Aperture?
on Nov 17, 2006 at 2:07:37 am

Whats Up Walter,
Color Finese 2 is working fine for me. I use it as a plug in for FCP, and it's responsive and fast (DP 2Ghz G5). Not sure if the MacPro is the reason why you're seeing slower performance. Maybe not optimized?? Dunno.
I color correct mainly with FCP's 3-Way CC and use CF2 for more complex shots that require a little more attention.
You get RT output to an external monitor via Kona and changes are seen in real time.
Only downfall: requires rendering, and view option needs to be toggled after using CF for Kona to get control again.

I would like to spring for the external control surface, but I'll wait to see what Apple does with Final Touch.

Overall, in a broadcast environment, I am very happy with Color Finesse.

Ron

RIOT Productions
G5, Kona LH, Atto UL4D, FCP5, QT 7.


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walter biscardi
Re: Thoughts on Synthetic Aperture?
on Nov 17, 2006 at 2:56:16 am

[ronnyron] "Not sure if the MacPro is the reason why you're seeing slower performance. Maybe not optimized?? Dunno."

I am using the Intel version of it and I'm not sure if it feels slow because Final Touch is so fast or if it's still buggy, it is a beta at the moment.

Thanks for the overall report, good to hear from someone using it in a broadcast environment.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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David Battistella
Re: Thoughts on Synthetic Aperture?
on Nov 17, 2006 at 5:09:38 am



Wally,

You are up to late.

Give me a call.

david



Peace and Love :)


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David Battistella
Re: Thoughts on Synthetic Aperture?
on Nov 17, 2006 at 5:09:53 am



Wally,

You are up to late.

Give me a call.

david



Peace and Love :)


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Jeremy Newmark
Re: Thoughts on Synthetic Aperture?
on Nov 17, 2006 at 6:32:13 pm

Walter,

I've been using the plug-in version on a quad G5 to grade 1080p material and I have had no problems. While it is not Final Touch and definately not Speed Grade, I think it's light years beyond the FCP 3-way corrector. I've created a coloring window setup to give me previous and next shot previews and it's been working very well. My biggest complaint would be having to refresh the monitor out when stepping out of the UI, but I've simply programed a button on my wacom tablet, so I just hit it after stepping out of the UI. All in all, I can still move very fast and grade quickly with this setup, for the money, the plug-in is a great add-on. Just my 2 cents.

best regards,

jeremy


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walter biscardi
Re: Thoughts on Synthetic Aperture?
on Nov 17, 2006 at 7:28:34 pm

[Jeremy Newmark] "All in all, I can still move very fast and grade quickly with this setup, for the money, the plug-in is a great add-on. Just my 2 cents."

I appreciate the feedback jeremy!



Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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