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Ultimate Kona 3 System

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DaxBedell
Ultimate Kona 3 System
on Nov 14, 2006 at 11:23:14 pm

I may be purchasing two high end Final Cut/Kona 3 systems and am looking for recommendations from everyday users as to the best combination of hardware, etc. So far I am looking at the new 3Ghz Quad Mac Pro with ATI x1900 graphics, the Kona 3 card and breakout box, and the ATTO FC42ES with a Ciprico MediaVault 4210 for storage. Are any of you using a similar system? Have you had any issues with any combination of the above hardware? I need this system to work with our current crop of 1080i HDCAM footage as well as footage from the 720p JVC GY-HD250 cameras (and BR-HD50 deck) that we will be purchasing soon. Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks.

Dax Bedell
WEDU-TV Tampa



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walter biscardi
Re: Ultimate Kona 3 System
on Nov 14, 2006 at 11:28:19 pm

We had that exact set up in one of our suites, but unfortunately had to return the Ciprico in three weeks. It had a failure and then the replacement drive also had a failure. I know it was a fluke deal as Ciprico / Huge makes reliable equipment, it just happened at the wrong time with a major deadline so we returned it.

My only other thought is go with Sony HDV instead of JVC. Better reliability and from what I've seen side by side, the Sony looks better. That will also keep you in 1080i all the way around. Not that it matters since the Kona 3 cross converts for you, but personally I avoid JVC at all costs.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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Bob Zelin
Re: Ultimate Kona 3 System
on Nov 15, 2006 at 2:03:30 am

Hi Dax -
this is an excellent system. Don't forget, you will need house reference from your station as well. The JVC does work, but Sony will soon release the HVR-1500 HDV VTR, which will have HD-SDI outputs on it, as well as RS422 control. The JVC has analog component HD outputs, and you will need either an AJA HD10AVA to convert the analog HD CAV signal to HD-SDI to get it into your Kona 3, or you will need the new Convergent Design HD-Connect-MI, to convert the HDMI port to HD-SDI. For monitoring, I recommend the Panasonic BT-LH2600W or BT-LH1700.

If you buy your system from Virtual Media in Orlando, I can build the system for you. We did many systems in Tampa, including Brighthouse Networks.

The ATTO FC42ES works fine in the MAC Pro. I am sorry that Walter had problems with his HUGE array, but as I am sure he experienced, HUGE support is excellent, and is quick to replace anything defective.

In my opinion, since you are used to working with pro gear, try to avoid firewire input - you will be much happier with HD-SDI and RS422 control, which is why I am not objecting to the JVC-BRHD50 (with RS422 control), or waiting for the new HVR-1500 - OR just getting the necessary converters, available from AJA.


bob Zelin


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David Issko
Re: Ultimate Kona 3 System
on Nov 15, 2006 at 3:41:07 am

Dax,

Great question as I am going in a similar direction with HDCAM and HDV shortly.

Thanks to Walter and Bob for their feedback. I agree with both Walter and Bob with the Sony HDV. I am looking to HDCAM with HDV support/backup and I too am waiting and looking forward to the HVR-1500.

Just yesterday I was thinking how exciting it will be to have HDSDI instead of firewire.

Walter and Bob, do you both recommend a 4gbit Fibre Channel setup over say a properly optioned Caldigit type 3gb SATA RAID?

All the best with your set up Dax.

Thanks again
David Issko


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Wayne Carey
Re: Ultimate Kona 3 System
on Nov 15, 2006 at 5:44:26 pm

Hey Dax,

I agree with all of the above. I have your system already and have been using it. Now, I am using the TerraBlock as compared to the Cipirco system but they are essentially the same with minor differences.

Let me just say, I agree totally with Walter on the HDV discussion. I have seen the JVC and Sony side by side and JVC's picture has lower resolution because the lens is rather inferior. In order for the JVC to compare, you'll need the better lens which is another $10K to add to it. Besides, you are also comparing 720 to 1080 which there is a difference in the fine areas of the picture. Now, if you plan to shoot 24p... The JVC with the better lens will work fine. But give Sony a real close look. Sony is coming out with the HVR-V1U which is the newer smaller 24p version of the HVR-Z1U. Full 1080p24 is awesome to consider for around $5k.

_______________________________

Wayne Carey
Schazam Productions
http://www.schazamproductions.com


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walter biscardi
Re: Ultimate Kona 3 System
on Nov 15, 2006 at 5:49:59 pm

[David Issko] "Walter and Bob, do you both recommend a 4gbit Fibre Channel setup over say a properly optioned Caldigit type 3gb SATA RAID?"

No opinion on the CalDigit setup though I am testing one of their regular SATA arrays right now for a Creative Cow review. I am going to compare their Fibre Channel solution vs. a Facilis solution.

Nothing beats 4gig Fibre channel. I was getting almost 500mb/s performance when the Ciprico array was here.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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Bob Zelin
Re: Ultimate Kona 3 System
on Nov 15, 2006 at 10:54:44 pm

to answer DAvid's question, I am a big fan of SATA arrays. I am awaiting my Cal Digit eval unit, but I have been successfully been using Sonnet SATA arrays with great success. My most recent install was at Adrenaline Films, where we put two Sonnet 500P chassis on one Sonnet X4P in an "old" dual 2.7 gig MAC G5 and a Kona 2, and we got 450 MB/sec from AJA Kona system test. This is 10 drives stripped RAID 0. The entire cost is under $6000 for 5 Terabytes of storage. Since 220mb/sec is enough for 10 bit uncompressed HD, 450mb/sec is MORE than enough for uncompressed HD. At this price point, it's hard to ignore.

I await my Cal Digit.

Bob Zelin


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DaxBedell
Re: Ultimate Kona 3 System
on Nov 16, 2006 at 3:02:47 am

I figured we would input video from firewire with the RS422 for control. Is that not possible? Also, in considering having to mix footage from our HDCAM with the JVC 720p, I know the Kona 3 will cross convert for me but is it possible to capture HDV footage from firewire into the uncompressed codec? Or would I have to capture the HDV footage via firewire and then capture the HD-SDI into the HDV codec to work on the same timeline?

Dax Bedell
WEDU-TV Tampa, FL



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walter biscardi
Re: Ultimate Kona 3 System
on Nov 16, 2006 at 3:07:36 am

[DaxBedell] "Kona 3 will cross convert for me but is it possible to capture HDV footage from firewire into the uncompressed codec?"

No. You need to feed the HDV deck to your Kona card to do uncompressed.

[DaxBedell] "Or would I have to capture the HDV footage via firewire and then capture the HD-SDI into the HDV codec to work on the same timeline?"

I don't think you can capture HD-SDI to HDV via the Kona. DVCPro HD yes, but I believe the Kona only offers HDV Playback. I just looked at my Kona 3 Easy Setups and the only HDV options there are for playback and Edit to Tape. All Capture is via Firewire HDV only.



Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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DaxBedell
Re: Ultimate Kona 3 System
on Nov 16, 2006 at 3:55:08 pm

On page 27 and 28 of the Kona 3 manual it says "KONA 3 can capture uncompressed from any SD-SDI or HD-SDI input directly to HDV media." Does that not mean what I think it means?

Dax Bedell
WEDU-TV Tampa, FL



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Bob Zelin
Re: Ultimate Kona 3 System
on Nov 16, 2006 at 7:35:44 pm

Dax -
no offense here, but FORGET HDV, and the HDV Codec. You will want to output from your Sony HVRM-25U or JVC BR-HD50 from the analog component outputs (analog HD) rignt into your Kona LHe card, OR - get an AJA HD10AVA to convert the analog HD signal from these VTRs into an HD-SDI signal, so you can go directly into a Kona 3. You DO NOT want to input an HDV signal. You will capture with either the DVCProHD Codec, or uncompressed 8 or 10 bit HD-SDI. Everything will work great, and you will treat this like the HI END system that you are building, and everything will work great. Your HUGE drive array will handle all of this very nicely.

bob Zelin


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DaxBedell
Re: Ultimate Kona 3 System
on Nov 16, 2006 at 10:21:56 pm

Understood. I know that the actual GY-HD250U cameras have HD-SDI output, but so far I don't see a corresponding deck from JVC that also has HD-SDI. I am not opposed to using an AJA converter to get the component out to HD-SDI, but I don't see that it supports 720 24p, which we definitely need out of the decks. I know there are some HDV to HD-SDI converters that might work but I have not really researched it thoroughly. Thanks for all your help on this. I just want to make the right decision up front.



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Bob Zelin
Re: Ultimate Kona 3 System
on Nov 16, 2006 at 10:42:19 pm

Dax - when you work with products like the JVC-BRHD50, even if you shoot at 23.98, you will input to your system at 59.94, not 23.98. These products do not work at 23.98 (it still looks like film when the VTR converts to 59.94). The AJA HD10A, and AJA HD10AVA are used EVERY DAY to simply convert products like the BR-HD50, and the Sony HVRM25U into HD-SDI signals.

If this is unacceptable to you (because you don't like these little converter boxes for some reason) - wait for the Sony HVR-1500 professional HDV VTR to come out. You will be EXTREEMLY UNHAPPY if you attempt to do all of this with firewire at a professional TV station.

Any dealer that you are dealing with should be knowlegeable about all of these products, and the process. You can get easily screwed if your dealer does not know what these products can and cannot do.

bob Zelin


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DaxBedell
Re: Ultimate Kona 3 System
on Nov 17, 2006 at 1:52:02 am

Ahhh! I see.. I did not know that it only edits in 59.94. I think then that getting the little Aja converters will be fine. But riddle me this... to mix this footage with 24p HDCAM footage, does the Kona 3 remove the pulldown on capture or add pulldown to the HDCAM footage? THanks for all the help.

Bob, would you mind contacting me in the real world. I would like to get all these little issues ironed out and talk about getting a quote from you. 813-254-9338 x2278 Thanks.

Dax Bedell
WEDU-TV Tampa, FL



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Bob Zelin
Re: Ultimate Kona 3 System
on Nov 17, 2006 at 11:37:56 pm

Dax -
I will contact you directly. To answer your question, when you use HDCam, and you shoot at 23.98 (only George Lucas shoots at 24), the Sony VTR (like the JH-3 or HDW-F500) will do a 2:3 pulldown on the 23.98 material, to enter it into your edit system at 59.94, so you can edit at a normal frame rate. If you own a Sony HDW-M2000 or HDW-S280, there is no 2:3 pulldown, so you would have to edit at 23.98, and then output from the Kona (using a menu in the audio video settings), so you could output at 29.97. We have found this to be inconvenient for customers, and the "quickie" solution is to put a Cobalt Digital 8021 converter (about $3000) at the output of the HDW-M2000, to do a hardware 2:3 pulldown, so you can input at 59.94. Again, if you work with the inexpensive JH-3 player, it has the pulldown converter built in. All Panasonic VTR's have 2:3 pulldown converters in them.

Talk to you in person on Monday.

bob Zelin


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walter biscardi
Re: Ultimate Kona 3 System
on Nov 16, 2006 at 10:47:10 pm

[DaxBedell] "I am not opposed to using an AJA converter to get the component out to HD-SDI, but I don't see that it supports 720 24p, which we definitely need out of the decks."

As far as I know it does. All it's doing is taking the component signal and converting it to SDI. I don't think it has anything to do with frame rates.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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gary adcock
Re: Ultimate Kona 3 System
on Nov 17, 2006 at 5:02:32 pm

[DaxBedell] "I am not opposed to using an AJA converter to get the component out to HD-SDI, but I don't see that it supports 720 24p, which we definitely need out of the decks."

The smpte spec for video steam is always 60p.
The Kona card, the converters and the deck all see it as 24/60 (which is 23.98 over 59.94) with the pulldown added.




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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