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Upconverting DV and Beta to DVCPRO HD

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Shane Ross
Upconverting DV and Beta to DVCPRO HD
on Nov 1, 2006 at 6:36:31 am

I am working on an HD show that needs to incorporate A LOT of archival footage that is on VHS ONLY (ick...I know) that we transferred to DVCAM, and betaSP. The main format of the show is DVCPRO HD 720p24. We need to capture this footage but can't just have a center extraction...we need to adjust the framing up or down in many shots.

Are we going to need to do a Terranex session for this, or is this something the Kona 3 or LH can handle? I know the Kona 3 can upconvert, but can I adjust framing with that, or does it just default to a center extraction that is cropped?

Thank you.


Shane


Littlefrog Post
http://www.lfhd.net


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walter biscardi
Re: Upconverting DV and Beta to DVCPRO HD
on Nov 1, 2006 at 7:10:37 am

[Shane Ross] "I know the Kona 3 can upconvert, but can I adjust framing with that, or does it just default to a center extraction that is cropped?"

You can adjust the position, scale once it's in FCP. You'll be quite surprised with the results of FCP's scale, I have been over the past few days bringing BetaSP, DV and DVD into an high def project.

You have three options for the upconvert, Pillar Box, Anamorphic or Letterbox.

Kona LH does not up-convert, only down-converts.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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Shane Ross
Re: Upconverting DV and Beta to DVCPRO HD
on Nov 1, 2006 at 7:47:35 am

Uhm...but, HOW does it bring it in then? FULL 4:3? How can I adjust AFTER? Please enlighten.



Shane


Littlefrog Post
http://www.lfhd.net


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walter biscardi
Re: Upconverting DV and Beta to DVCPRO HD
on Nov 1, 2006 at 7:50:09 am

[Shane Ross] "Uhm...but, HOW does it bring it in then? FULL 4:3? How can I adjust AFTER? Please enlighten."

I capture using the Pillar Box setting so it keeps everything 4:3, then I fill the frame with either a graphic or lately I've been using a video blur method to fill the rest of the frame.

But it captures full 720 or 1080i depending on what your Capture presets are set for.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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Shane Ross
Re: Upconverting DV and Beta to DVCPRO HD
on Nov 1, 2006 at 7:53:13 am

You are up late Walter.

Can only the Kona 3 do this? Or can we do this with the Kona LH we have in house?

I am getting AWFULLY temped to get a refirb Quad and a Kona 3 now. Sell my Apple stock...



Shane


Littlefrog Post
http://www.lfhd.net


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walter biscardi
Re: Upconverting DV and Beta to DVCPRO HD
on Nov 1, 2006 at 8:03:04 am

[Shane Ross] "Can only the Kona 3 do this? Or can we do this with the Kona LH we have in house?"

Kona 2 and 3 are the only boards with Up-Convert. LH does Down Convert.

You also get the added benefit of 720 to 1080 / 1080 to 720 cross convert with the Kona 3 and it's flawless.

I went to bed at 9, got up at 1:30. Deadlines you know. :-)


Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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Kevin Wild
Re: Upconverting DV and Beta to DVCPRO HD
on Nov 1, 2006 at 1:37:42 pm

For a nice method to hide 4x3 in a 16x9 project, watch how ESPN does it on some of their footage. It's easy to replicate:

Put a layer of your same clip under you main clip. On the background clip, scale it up so it fills 16 x 9 as a background. Add a guassian blur to it. Now, on your top clip, if it looks better, soften your edges (or crop if you need).

Hope that helps.

KW


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walter biscardi
Re: Upconverting DV and Beta to DVCPRO HD
on Nov 1, 2006 at 1:51:19 pm

[Kevin Wild] "For a nice method to hide 4x3 in a 16x9 project, watch how ESPN does it on some of their footage. It's easy to replicate:"

Yep, saw that too. Fox and NBC are doing the same thing with their sports. We're using the same method on our series and it looks great. We're using a blur of 50 on the two "side panels" and it really is working out well.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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Bart Harrison
Re: Upconverting DV and Beta to DVCPRO HD
on Nov 1, 2006 at 2:03:58 pm

Shane,

Is this DVCPRO HD 720p24 material still inside the 60fps (59.94) matrix or is it in a true 24fps (23.976) progressive format on the computer ?

Bart

- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bart Harrison
MPA - The HD Suite

America's VAR
TurnKey Editing Systems, Storage Area Networks
HD Consulting, Production & Post, Exhibition & Distribution
http://www.hdsuite.com
954-894-1221


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David Battistella
Re: Upconverting DV and Beta to DVCPRO HD
on Nov 1, 2006 at 2:12:58 pm


Shane,

This will take a bit more time and you might want to do it only on your finsihsed clips, but I would capture it all at DVCPRO50 and then use a droplet in Compressor to do th eupconvert. I have been doing this to DV footage with amazing results. Compressor usins SHAKE's optical flow technology and if you set up a preset properly you can create a really great looking progressive image, as the 720P is.

I think compresso will handle this better than FCP will because you have more control over the outcome.

My recents tests have all been done after watching this great tutorial on how to do this with 4X3 footage. You can even download the droplets from the tutorial.

Check this out. Even at the best settings the clips render fast, you might want to do it with all of the captured material. and just imoprt it and edit away with no rendering. Take the time to watch this.

http://www.proapptips.com/videos/_DV_to_DVCPRO_HD.mov

Peace and Love :)


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David Battistella
Re: Upconverting DV and Beta to DVCPRO HD
on Nov 1, 2006 at 2:14:28 pm



Geez Shane,

I actually just pointed you to your own tutorial! AHhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!.


You are doing it the best way now....


boy, do I feel like a complete dorK!

david



Peace and Love :)


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walter biscardi
Re: Upconverting DV and Beta to DVCPRO HD
on Nov 1, 2006 at 3:07:14 pm

[David Battistella] "boy, do I feel like a complete dorK!"

D'OH!

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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Shane Ross
Re: Upconverting DV and Beta to DVCPRO HD
on Nov 1, 2006 at 11:14:55 pm

Bart: We are working with Varicam footage, which is 59.94 on tape, and pulldown removed to get us 23.98.

Kevin: That ESPN idea looks great, and I will pitch it. Walter was nice enough to send me footage that was DV upconverted to DVCPRO HD and sent a couple stills showing what you are talking about. This looks great, and I will pitch it to my producer. But I like it a lot.

Walter: Thank you very much.

David: ROTFLMAO. When you first posted that I thought you were kidding, but it turns out you didn't know it was me who posted that. Too funny. Unfortunately we have a VERY short delivery on this show and cannot afford the render time that those droplets require. Although I do have 3 G5s....hmmmm....

Gary: Yes, we were going to do a LARGE Terranex session. But now with the suggestion these kind folks gave me, I think I will be pitching this idea to the producer, then buying a Mac Pro and Kona 3...my wife will hate me.



Shane


Littlefrog Post
http://www.lfhd.net


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Bart Harrison
Re: Upconverting DV and Beta to DVCPRO HD
on Nov 1, 2006 at 11:30:53 pm

[Shane Ross] "Bart: We are working with Varicam footage, which is 59.94 on tape, and pulldown removed to get us 23.98."


So the "upconversion" from NTSC to 720p isn't your only issue. You also have a framerate problem. Is there any specific reason you must edit at 23.98 ?

Bart

- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bart Harrison
MPA - The HD Suite

America's VAR
TurnKey Editing Systems, Storage Area Networks
HD Consulting, Production & Post, Exhibition & Distribution
http://www.hdsuite.com
954-894-1221


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walter biscardi
Re: Upconverting DV and Beta to DVCPRO HD
on Nov 2, 2006 at 12:07:01 am

[Bart Harrison] "So the "upconversion" from NTSC to 720p isn't your only issue. You also have a framerate problem. Is there any specific reason you must edit at 23.98 ?"

One of the things we do here is pretty much edit everything at 59.94 no matter how it's shot. 24, 30, 59.94, it's all going to broadcast so for me it's just easier to stay in the 29.97 frame rate workspace.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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Shane Ross
Re: Upconverting DV and Beta to DVCPRO HD
on Nov 2, 2006 at 12:14:02 am

[Bart Harrison] "Is there any specific reason you must edit at 23.98 ? "

Because we deliver a 1080p 23.98 master.

But hmmm....that is something I need to test too...



Shane


Littlefrog Post
http://www.lfhd.net


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Don Wilson
Re: Upconverting DV and Beta to DVCPRO HD
on Nov 2, 2006 at 12:49:12 am

Hey Shane,

Please let me know how you end up attacking this and the quality of the results. I have a Mac Pro and Kona 3 and the picture looks great but the frame rate issue is still a bit of an issue. I've had the best results with the Kona and Nattress Format converter though it still isn't "great". Must admit that I've solved a lot of it with projection and reshooting in HD and it's a great artist look as well.

Don Wilson
AmericanaMediaInc.com

Don Wilson
AmericanaMediaInc.com


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Shane Ross
Re: Upconverting DV and Beta to DVCPRO HD
on Nov 2, 2006 at 2:58:48 am

I will be keeping note of what we do on my blog at http://www.lfhd.net. I tend to outline workflows I tried and successes I have had.

Well, I just showed this to the other editor and to the producer. While we think it is cool, it doesn't suit our story. And the fact that we will have 50% of our footage as DV, beta and VHS archive (VHS all dubbed to DV) and very little time to even think about this, we will most likely have a Terranex session. We editors need to put all our efforts in the creative aspect of this, and don't have time to monkey around...so the Post Super will be handling this most likely...although we'll prep which footage is to be top extracted, which is to be center extracted and which is to be bottom.

I'll keep you posted.


Shane


Littlefrog Post
http://www.lfhd.net


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gary adcock
Re: Upconverting DV and Beta to DVCPRO HD
on Nov 1, 2006 at 3:44:29 pm

[Shane Ross] "Are we going to need to do a Terranex session for this, or is this something the Kona 3 or LH can handle? I know the Kona 3 can upconvert, but can I adjust framing with that, or does it just default to a center extraction that is cropped?"


I have both, and the difference between the upconvert on my Kona 3 and a Terranex Mini unit ( w/o the noise reduction) were undistinguishable to me on a scope or to my eyes.

however if you are working on a big terranex (rack mount) with noise reduction, image enhance and image restore functions, it wins hands down, as it should, being upwards of a 50X-70X more expensive than my Kona 3 card.

But you better have deep pockets to work on one of these 6 figure boxes. Most places I know of want between $400-600 an hour for conversion from SD and charge extra from VHS.


gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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David Battistella
Re: Upconverting DV and Beta to DVCPRO HD
on Nov 2, 2006 at 2:51:27 am



Wait,

Don't I get the award for teh dorkiest post of the year award. Can somebody please inform the Lindeboom's and let me know where I pick up the prize.


Shane. Have you seen or hear about this product from RossGear.


http://www.rossvideo.com/rossgear/rossgear_md/udc8225.html

I am not sure what the price point is, but this is a multi def cross converter for HD.

David



Peace and Love :)


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Shane Ross
Re: Upconverting DV and Beta to DVCPRO HD
on Nov 2, 2006 at 3:02:08 am

[David Battistella] "Don't I get the award for teh dorkiest post of the year award"

Yes, you do. It is the DO'H award and for that you get a lifetime supply of....Mmmmmm...donuts.

Of course I have seen those. I designed them. ROSS...C'mon! (hee...kidding).



Shane


Littlefrog Post
http://www.lfhd.net


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David Battistella
Re: Upconverting DV and Beta to DVCPRO HD
on Nov 2, 2006 at 3:19:59 am



Now that would have been a double d'OH nut. :)


David



Peace and Love :)


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