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59.94 frame conflicts for film out -workflow?

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Vahe Douglas
59.94 frame conflicts for film out -workflow?
on Oct 19, 2006 at 6:08:18 am

Hello,

First timer here, hopeing someone has been through this, trying to get to 24 from 59.94 for color timing then film out.

So far:
Shot on JVC GY100 @ 24p -> Ingest: FCP 5.1.2/ Kona Lh 2.0.1, DVCproHD 720p 59.94 -> Edit -> Trying to get to 24 (or 23.976?) 10 bit Un-compressed.

Thought I could just drop it on a 24 10 bit timeline and render out, but looks like the frames are slurring around. My next step was to media manage the project to another drive for experimentation with reverse telecine, but i have a feeling that will lead me down a rabbit hole.

Will all my problems be solved if I just lay this back to a HD deck and re capture, or that fact it's 59.94 makes in impossible to lay to a hd deck? umm, yeah, im lost, never used an hd deck before, and scared stiff of messing up frame cadence.




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David Battistella
Re: 59.94 frame conflicts for film out -workflow?
on Oct 19, 2006 at 9:22:45 pm



Why would you ever go into the 59.94 woorkspace at all?

My suggestion.

Capture the JVC via Firewire.

Transcode the footage to DVCpro HD 23.98P
Transcode the footage to 10 bit uncompressed HD 1920x1080 23.98P (store this for later use)

Edit in the DVCPRO HD codec with the KONA 2 or 3.

When you have finished, media manage the project and reconnect the cut to the 10 bit UC media.

Export a Targa sequence to a hard drive for the film out.

Stay away from transcoding anything between 59.94 and 23.98.

These HDV camera's are creating awful workflows and they have serious compression issues.

David





Peace and Love :)


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Bob Zelin
Re: 59.94 frame conflicts for film out -workflow?
on Oct 20, 2006 at 11:44:35 pm

david of course is correct.
You want to FILM OUT at 24. You shoot in 24. The AJA works at 24. When you are ready to dump, you can rent a Sony HDW series VTR to record at 24, or take your hard drive to a place that can print to film from it. Why on earth would you want to do the pulldown to 59.94 when you shot on 24, and you need to release on 24. You are getting stepping because you are putting a 59.94 clip into a 23.98 timeline.

Here I rant about how people should only work in 59.94 because 99% of us finish for TV - but you are finishing for film - stay in 24. And since you need a film out- because this is for theatrical release - I know that you can afford to rent a HDW-F500 or HDW-M2000/10 for at least one day to dump out before it goes to a tele-kine.

Bob Zelin


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gary adcock
Re: 59.94 frame conflicts for film out -workflow?
on Oct 21, 2006 at 2:36:46 pm

[Bob Zelin] "Here I rant about how people should only work in 59.94 because 99% of us finish for TV - but you are finishing for film - stay in 24."

sorry GUYS
NO NO NO NO Video is edited at the frame rate it was shot

the post production process is built around the concept of video and audio matching in sync and all of the camera you are working with DOES NOT support 24.O fps on tape ---your content is 23.98 ( the JVC camera shoots a 59.94Hz signal NOT 60 Hz)

the only way to get the 23.98 video out of the JVC camera is either over FW ( bad) or by using the JVC deck with serial control (BRU-50????) and then capturing the content as 23.98/ go to http://aja.com/pdf/support/AJA_whitepaper_HDV.pdf to see how to handle the content correctly in this workflow.

The smear you are seeing may be the motion "compensation" a setting that is on by default in the JVC camera and may appear as tearing when looking at content in a frame by frame fashion. The other thing you may be seeing is interframe compression of the 59.94 video stream.



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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Stuart Ferreyra
Re: 59.94 frame conflicts for film out -workflow?
on Oct 21, 2006 at 4:13:36 pm

We have a similar issue. Content was shot with the JVC HDV 24P codec wich FCP did not support
until just a couple of weeks (and it still has issues). The client decided to shoot his indie movie
with the JVC to be able to change camera lenses and keep the costs of HD down.

Anyway, the only way to ingest the material and keep the progressive feel was to do a component
HD out of the JVC deck through the Kona card for DVCPro HD 720 59.94 coversion. I contacted
JVC, AJA and even Nattress to come up with the workflow.

It worked GREAT! The ditor has done a great job, but the issue now is that even though most of the
ilm is 95% cuts, theer are some dissolves and titles which shift the field (I guess) of the 59.94 material
and it becomess jagged until play back gets back to normal picture.

I have to do some tests to figure out what we will do. We will be in charge of the CC with FinalTouch
and the mastering. The client will not go back to film, but we do need to figure this out. It has become
a problem...

Any ideas?

Stuart C Ferreyra
Timecode Multimedia
President
Santa Monica, CA 90025


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gary adcock
Re: 59.94 frame conflicts for film out -workflow?
on Oct 21, 2006 at 8:13:53 pm

[Stuart Ferreyra] "he issue now is that even though most of the
ilm is 95% cuts, theer are some dissolves and titles which shift the field (I guess) of the 59.94 material
and it becomess jagged until play back gets back to normal picture."



You need to tell FCP to render at full quality not Dynamic.
My guess is that the render settings are for speed and not for quality. what does the the footage look like if you render out a QT file.



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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Timecode Multimedia
Re: 59.94 frame conflicts for film out -workflow?
on Oct 21, 2006 at 9:29:55 pm

You may be right I'll check on it. But why would the dissolves (or any render) do the jagged video
if we are fully rendering and not relying on FCP's RT feature?
We did change the render to high-precision YUV.

I do not really like this HDV codec. There are too many issues; and the fact that all manufacturers
are putting out their own version; and therefore, changing the position of their MPEG frames, it
is just creating massive incompatibility. What they should do is come up with a universal codec
like they did with DV. I much rather not use it (but what can we do - is out there and there is
business for it).

Stuart C Ferreyra
Timecode Multimedia
President
Santa Monica, CA 90025


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David Battistella
Re: 59.94 frame conflicts for film out -workflow?
on Oct 21, 2006 at 9:43:22 pm



Stuart,

You are so right about HDV. I sort of call it "pretend HD" is really is prosumer and was not designed for a pro workflow. There is an enormous amount of time added in Long GOP streams. It is a fantastic playback medium, but the 4:2:0 color space and the long GOP means the best thing to do it get the media into a "friendlier format/codec" (like DVCPRO HD) and let your post workflow happen from there.

The JVC camera does not even shoot 1080 and the Chroma abberations on the stock lense is awful. Not to mention it has taken forever for anyone to want to deal with JVC's propritary version of HDV (from now on I think the "H" in HDV should stand for Hoax).

That all said, I know that budgets and other factors mean we will have to deal with this codec in post. I wish someone would invent the happy medium between the convienience of HDV and the quality of DVCPRO HD (minus the impractical, over priced P2 media)

David



Peace and Love :)


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Arniepix
Re: 59.94 frame conflicts for film out -workflow?
on Oct 22, 2006 at 6:28:19 pm

[David Battistella] "(minus the impractical, over priced P2 media)"

We've just wrapped shooting a feature on P2. 23 hours of footage, which is archived onto 72 DVD DL disks, at around $1.80 per. And a 2nd set of DVDs for redundancy. Compared to, say, 138,000 feet of film? 36 DVCPro or HDCam Cassettes? And we can edit & create scratch effects shots with our native footage on a laptop, in the field.

No, I don't think P2 is impractical or overpriced.

Arnie

On location in Moscow for Peristroika, a film by Slava Tsukerman

http://www.arniepix.com/blog


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David Battistella
Re: 59.94 frame conflicts for film out -workflow?
on Oct 22, 2006 at 7:03:58 pm



Good for you.
But don't confuse shooting 35mm with what you are shooting. There is a reason most major features are still shot and distributed in 35mm.

David



Peace and Love :)


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Arniepix
Re: 59.94 frame conflicts for film out -workflow?
on Oct 22, 2006 at 7:17:15 pm

Nope. you could never play a 35mm shot back from a laptop minutes after it's in the can. I won't get confused at all! And films won't be distributed on 35mm in a few more years. They'll still be shot on 35mm, but distribution will be mainly digital sometime in the next decade. It's a matter of economics and setting standards.

Arnie

On location in Moscow for Peristroika, a film by Slava Tsukerman

http://www.arniepix.com/blog


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David Battistella
Re: 59.94 frame conflicts for film out -workflow?
on Oct 22, 2006 at 7:38:09 pm


Arnie,

I am not getting baited into any more of this crap.

david



Peace and Love :)


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Bob Zelin
Re: 59.94 frame conflicts for film out -workflow?
on Oct 21, 2006 at 9:03:23 pm

Gary says -
NO NO NO NO Video is edited at the frame rate it was shot

Well, please correct me here Gary, but the Sony JH-3 (for example) does a 2:3 pulldown so you can input your 23.98 footage at 59.94, and the Panasonic AJ-HD1200 and 1400 does the same thing. This is the "common knowlege" way of working for TV production - I am not saying that it is right - but this is what everybody does. Since almost everyone shoots HD at 23.98 for the "film look", please tell me the reason why someone would not want to edit this 23.98 footage at 59.94, if it going to wind up on TV (or a training video, or conference room, or DVD or web video). Sony charges $10,000 for the SR5500 option board, just to get the pulldown option so you can input at 59.94.

Bob Zelin


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David Battistella
Re: 59.94 frame conflicts for film out -workflow?
on Oct 21, 2006 at 9:25:06 pm



Gary,

Is there no way to get the 23.98 footage from this camera, without going 59.94? What is the point of shooting 23.98 then? Isn't it best in a "filmout" workflow to stay in 23.98.

As an example, if I shot a film in SD 23.98 (24P advanced) with either an SDX series or HVX or DVX series camera, would it not be wiser to stay in these progressiev frame rates when editing and ouputting a TGA sequence to a lab for the filmout?

Is it this particular camera (HDV based) that requires the move to 59.94? They JVC shoots at 24P, can this not be translated by FCP, lumierre?

Next month at the TORFCPUG we will be having a presentation on this camera and workflow and this is why I am so interested.

I like the idea of coming in via SDI and the DVCPRO HD codec but at what poiint does it become 23.98 again for the filmout?

David





Peace and Love :)


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Timecode Multimedia
Re: 59.94 frame conflicts for film out -workflow?
on Oct 21, 2006 at 9:35:53 pm

When I was doing research, the conclusion was that it is specifically a JVC's issue.
All the other manufacturers seem to be ok, but it is precisely the JVC 24P 23.98 HDV
codec where the problem is. All other JVC HDV frame rates seem to be ok.

Even FCP could not work with it until 2 weeks ago when a new patch was released,
but even now there are still issues with it.

Stuart C Ferreyra
Timecode Multimedia
President
Santa Monica, CA 90025


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David Battistella
Re: 59.94 frame conflicts for film out -workflow?
on Oct 21, 2006 at 9:44:39 pm



Stuart,

If you contact me off list I might be able to hook you up with someone who has just done a series on this camera and may be able to help you with the in's and outs.

David



Peace and Love :)


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Timecode Multimedia
Re: 59.94 frame conflicts for film out -workflow?
on Oct 21, 2006 at 11:00:12 pm

Will do this coming week.
Thanks!

Stuart Ferreyra
Timecode Multimedia
President
Santa Monica, CA 90025
http://www.timecodemultimedia.com


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gary adcock
Re: 59.94 frame conflicts for film out -workflow?
on Oct 22, 2006 at 2:48:15 pm

Stuart

I am speaking at NABNY next week But I will be in LA for HD expo on November 1 & 2, and DV expo later that month if you would like to talk.

gary adcock
Studio37@mac.com




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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gary adcock
Re: 59.94 frame conflicts for film out -workflow?
on Oct 22, 2006 at 2:49:06 pm

Stuart

I am speaking at NABNY next week But I will be in LA for HD expo on November 1 & 2, and DV expo later that month if you would like to talk.

gary adcock
Studio37@mac.com




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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gary adcock
Re: 59.94 frame conflicts for film out -workflow?
on Oct 22, 2006 at 2:53:42 pm

sorry about the multiple posts

browser error ( between the floor and the keyboard)

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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gary adcock
Re: 59.94 frame conflicts for film out -workflow?
on Oct 22, 2006 at 2:50:14 pm

Stuart

I am speaking at NABNY next week But I will be in LA for HD expo on November 1 & 2, and DV expo later that month if you would like to talk.

gary adcock
Studio37@mac.com




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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gary adcock
Re: 59.94 frame conflicts for film out -workflow?
on Oct 22, 2006 at 2:45:35 pm

[Bob Zelin] "Well, please correct me here Gary, but the Sony JH-3 (for example) does a 2:3 pulldown so you can input your 23.98 footage at 59.94, and the Panasonic AJ-HD1200 and 1400 does the same thing"

But we are not talking about that with this poster.
Shot on JVC GY100 @ 24p -> Ingest: FCP 5.1.2/ Kona Lh 2.0.1, DVCproHD 720p 59.94

yes "real hd" decks can do all that you say but this is not the issue here for this poster.
You can extract the 23.98 content from the 59.94 JVC footage from the BR-HD50U when using a RS-422 serial connection (NOT FW).

[Bob Zelin] "Why on earth would you want to do the pulldown to 59.94 when you shot on 24, and you need to release on 24. You are getting stepping because you are putting a 59.94 clip into a 23.98 timeline. "

that is the 720 format and it is a progressive format so the stair stepping is something else all together.

- but the post process for filmout is not 24.0 when the camera cannot shoot 24.0 - the JVC camera shoots 59.94 which means that the 24p footage from this camera is ALWAYS going to be 23.98. The 720p format does not live as 23.98 any where but in a computer- the SMPTE standard for a 720p video stream is always 60 fps (at a 59.94 time base in the US)

your mixing apple, apples and oranges Bob, this is 720p HDV content (that cannot do 24.0)

The post production process is normally based as 23.98 because of the audio when doing filmouts- this is a carry over from the offline / online days of transferring 24.0 film content to NTSC where drop frame timecode was needed to be able to make the video tape playback properly.


gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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Vahe Douglas
Re: 59.94 frame conflicts for film out -workflow?
on Oct 23, 2006 at 2:56:23 am

wow, sounds like I have to do an 'online' to a 'online'.

I would have spent the extra 2 weeks using Lumiere and HDxDV to get 23.98 footage, had i knowen it was going to go to film (I had to use both sofware together to get there on the last project which did not go to film (wasn't suprised, big waste of time)), but the KONA had the appealing real time capture, right?

I dont know why the capture is limited to 720p at 59.94 with kona, has anyone SUCCESSFULLY captured 23.98 footage off the BR-HD50U that had been shot at 24p HDV 720p with timecode?

i noticed theres a 1080i setting in the gy100, wonder if this will bridge the gap to a faster up-rez vs the 720p format, but all shot at 24p? I would image it would at least be easier to get to 23.98 from 29.97 vs trying to get to 23.98 from 59.94?

but hey, everyone of my clients loves the look and feel of the dvcrpohd 720p from the gy100, i guess if it does go to film, an online to a online will be the silliest thing i will ever have to exlpain to a client. humm.




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gary adcock
Re: 59.94 frame conflicts for film out -workflow?
on Oct 24, 2006 at 1:31:15 pm

[Vahe Douglas] "I dont know why the capture is limited to 720p at 59.94 with kona, has anyone SUCCESSFULLY captured 23.98 footage off the BR-HD50U that had been shot at 24p HDV 720p with timecode? "

this is not correct
you can capture 720p 32.98 from JVC material, you have to use the BR-HD50U and use serial control--but you cannot do it as HDV.

there is a whitepaper on the aja web site specific to your workflow. http://aja.com/pdf/support/AJA_whitepaper_HDV.pdf




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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Vahe Douglas
Re: 59.94 frame conflicts for film out -workflow?
on Oct 24, 2006 at 11:01:59 pm

thanks, you guys RULE!!!



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