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KiPro and MXF

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Herb Sevush
KiPro and MXF
on Sep 28, 2013 at 4:12:11 pm

At a demo a year or so ago I was talking to an AJA rep and asked if it were possible to have KiPros be able to record in MXF instead of Qicktime as an option for those using Avid in post. He led me to believe this would happen in the future.

Since then I have heard nothing about this. Just wondering if this is still a consideration, as it would greatly ease my post workflow - having to re-wrap 14 Terrabytes of Quicktime DNxHD is something I would like to avoid.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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gary adcock
Re: KiPro and MXF
on Sep 28, 2013 at 6:03:11 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I was talking to an AJA rep and asked if it were possible to have KiPros be able to record in MXF instead of Qicktime as an option for those using Avid in post. He led me to believe this would happen in the future."

Depends on which units. On the original KiPro the answer is a big NO.

On the later models ie: Mini, Rack or Quad units can record a compatible version of DNX ( OP1a ) in both HD and SD ( the only formats supported by DNX )

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL


Follow my blog at http://www.garyadcock.com

Or follow me on Twitter
@garyadcock




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Herb Sevush
Re: KiPro and MXF
on Sep 29, 2013 at 5:50:39 pm

[gary adcock] "On the later models ie: Mini, Rack or Quad units can record a compatible version of DNX ( OP1a ) in both HD and SD ( the only formats supported by DNX )"

I'm talking about later models like the rack - I know they can record in DNxHD, which is what I would like to do, but can they record it in an MFX wrapper or only a Quicktime, .MOV, wrapper?

Currently we use 5 KiPros to record our multi-camera studio segments. Right now we record in ProRes for use in FCP7. We are planning on switching to a new platform next year for editing. Avid would be the main contender but for the fact that I've been warned that AMA is a PITA and I don't want to have to re-wrap 14 Terrabytes of material from Quicktime to MXF just to start editing. If the KiPros could record DNx in an MXF wrapper I would go that way in a heartbeat. Currently i find nothing on the AJA site to indicate that MXF is a possibility, are you saying it is?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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gary adcock
Re: KiPro and MXF
on Sep 29, 2013 at 7:41:12 pm

[Herb Sevush] " If the KiPros could record DNx in an MXF wrapper I would go that way in a heartbeat"

Unfortunately that version of the DNX codec can only be recorded in realtime on an Avid Server for Broadcast.

It has to do with recording in-reatlime. The codec version you are talking about is computationally difficult to create within a device recording live. All the in-camera (even Arri) and external recorder options ( Aja, BMD, Atoms, Convergient Design) all use the OP1a version of the Avid codec as far as I know.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL


Follow my blog at http://www.garyadcock.com

Or follow me on Twitter
@garyadcock




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Herb Sevush
Re: KiPro and MXF
on Sep 30, 2013 at 1:28:57 pm

[gary adcock] " All the in-camera (even Arri) and external recorder options ( Aja, BMD, Atoms, Convergient Design) all use the OP1a version of the Avid codec as far as I know."

This is from the AJA website about the KiPro Rack:

By utilizing efficient ProRes and DNxHD codecs, file sizes are kept in check so you won't need to blow your production budget on extra storage.

But the precise Codec is not my question, my question is whether it will ever be available in MXF as opposed to Quicktime.

In other words, are there any plans to have the KiPro be able to produce a file that can be edited natively in Avid, without any sort of re-wrapping or need to use AMA?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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AJA Sales Department
Re: KiPro and MXF
on Sep 30, 2013 at 5:31:23 pm

The AJA Ki Pro Mini and the AJA Ki Pro Rack offer support for three of the five families of Avid DNxHD. The AJA Ki Pro Mini and AJA Ki Pro Rack products offer support for the Avid DNxHD 220x family, Avid DNxHD 145 family and the Avid DNxHD 36 family (if a progressive or PsF video source is used). Page four of the Avid DNxHD Technology document, provided by Avid, gives good examples of the various attributes of the DNxHD families:
http://www.avid.com/static/resources/US/documents/dnxhd.pdf

Note that unlike the Apple ProRes family of codecs, Avid DNxHD encoding does not provide support for standard definition video. If standard definition video is input and an Avid DNxHD encode type has been selected on the AJA Ki Pro Mini or the AJA Ki Pro Rack, a warning prompt will appear. On both the AJA Ki Pro Mini and the AJA Ki Pro Rack, the DNxHD encoded files are QuickTimes. MXF support is not provided at this time.

Avid DNxHD QuickTime files produced by the AJA Ki Pro Mini or AJA Ki Pro Rack devices are designed for use with Avid products such as Media Composer. To use the Avid DNxHD QuickTime files produced by the Ki Pro products in Avid Media Composer, AJA recommends using the "Link to AMA File(s)" feature provided in Avid Media Composer. These Avid DNxHD QuickTime files may also be read in a variety of other non-linear edit systems (when the appropriate Avid QuickTime codec package has been installed).

If you have additional questions, please feel free to contact AJA Technical Support directly via phone or email. Technical support is provided free of charge and is available Monday through Friday between 9am and 5pm PST:
Phone: +1-530-271-3190
Email: support@aja.com

--
AJA Video Systems
+1 (530) 274-2048 Intl.
(800) 251-4224 US
sales@aja.com


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gary adcock
Re: KiPro and MXF
on Oct 1, 2013 at 2:49:34 am

[Herb Sevush] "But the precise Codec is not my question, my question is whether it will ever be available in MXF as opposed to Quicktime."

Herb,

Can you please name a recording device that can produce this proprietary MXF file currently?

It is my understanding that the MXF version of the DNXHD is not optimized foe realtime acquisition, hence the OP1a variant that is used by most mfg's

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL


Follow my blog at http://www.garyadcock.com

Or follow me on Twitter
@garyadcock




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Herb Sevush
Re: KiPro and MXF
on Oct 1, 2013 at 1:49:59 pm

[gary adcock] "It is my understanding that the MXF version of the DNXHD is not optimized foe realtime acquisition, hence the OP1a variant that is used by most mfg's"

So I guess the answer to my original question is no.

Thanks.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: KiPro and MXF
on Oct 1, 2013 at 3:17:32 pm

Hi, Herb.

How do you usually receive the 14TBs as of now?

Is it on multiple hard drives, and then do you transfer to a Raid?

If so, you can do the same thing with the Avid material, but you simply rewrap and transfer at the same time.

This would leave a .mov on the original drives, and a rewrapped MXF on the raid.

Jeremy


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Herb Sevush
Re: KiPro and MXF
on Oct 1, 2013 at 3:53:45 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "you simply rewrap and transfer at the same time. "

Yes, my material is dumped to portable drives at the studio in Boston and then transferred to my raids in NY when we're finished shooting. It takes days to transfer across using firewire 800. I should probably just act like a grown up and test to see how much time it actually takes to re-wrap and transfer at the same time, although I'm not sure how to accomplish that. Another item to test this spring. Of course either Thunderbolt or USB3 will also change the time equation, but for now I'm stuck in the world of firewire. I never realized MXF+DNx was such a problem to record, I was just hoping to have one less pathway to have to test.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: KiPro and MXF
on Oct 1, 2013 at 4:11:00 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I never realized MXF+DNx was such a problem to record"

I don't think that this is "necessarily ultra difficult" from a programming perspective if it were available. Cameras record OP1a or OP-atom MXF all the time (granted, they cost an order of magnitude more than external recorders).

Arri, for example, allows OP1a recording of DNxHD MXF files on the Alexa.

I think this may have to do with licensing from Avid, and also their choice of OP-atom MXF implementation. It's quite a messy sneeze of files, but what the hell do I know?

Rewrapping usually doesn't take long. As you know, your bottleneck is the fw800 transfer. Since you have to do a monster transfer anyway with ProRes .mov files, my guess is that it won't take much longer to simply rewrap at the same time when importing to Avid. It's not a transcode, just a container change on top of the file transfer.

[Herb Sevush] "I was just hoping to have one less pathway to have to test."

Pffff! There is no such thing as less pathways these days.

Jeremy


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Richard Wirth
Re: KiPro and MXF
on Nov 15, 2013 at 7:13:06 pm

Don't know if any of you are still checking this thread.

I'm going to throw in my 2 pennies and mention the Black Magic Design Hyperdeck. It does a pretty fair job with MXF files (recording and playing back). However, there is still no Psf playback capability so laying off to tape for archiving is cumbersome with needing to convert. Also, I've been having a lot of problems with their Pro model identifying timecodes properly. They just shipped me a replacement on an RMA and it is even worse than the first one.

We went with them because we liked the idea of non-proprietary drives.

I've been looking at KiPro Rack but I'm curious to know if anyone has any experience with both units. I'd like to get a fair comparison so I can avoid jumping out of the frying pan into the fire.


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Herb Sevush
Re: KiPro and MXF
on Nov 15, 2013 at 7:36:27 pm

[Richard Wirth] "I've been looking at KiPro Rack but I'm curious to know if anyone has any experience with both units. I'd like to get a fair comparison so I can avoid jumping out of the frying pan into the fire."

We've been using the KiPro extensively in a studio configuration for 3 years - 5 camera studio shoots for PBS cooking shows. They work flawlessly.

They are also the only recorder that comes with control software so that an operator can specify clip names with extensive meta data simultaneously for multiple recorders and control those recorders remotely all from a single computer. I can't imagine working in a studio without this type of setup and AJA is the only company that has it.

While I would like the option to record to MXF DNxHD, I would not give up the control software to get it. When you're creating hundreds and sometimes thousands of clips, having meaningful and unique clip names instead of "SJGMXS003468MNJ" is fantastic.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Nick Palm
Re: KiPro and MXF
on Feb 25, 2015 at 6:08:42 pm

Not to bring this forum back from the dead, but the cinedecks seem to not have a problem with DNxHD in MXF Wrappers, which is usually what we use to record our big multicam shows. We used a different company this time around, and they used kipro's, and I agree that re-wrapping the .mov files is a time consuming PITA. And Avid AMA is not the answer here, especially when we're talking about a 15 stream show at DNX 145.

We are doing a build-out soon and I was lucky to get the inside scoop that KiPro's were being considered.

Looking to see if anyone knows of any devices other than the cinedeck that will wrap DNxHD as MXF.


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