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KiPro Mini rec trigger and continuous record

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Richard Boghosian
KiPro Mini rec trigger and continuous record
on Mar 18, 2011 at 12:57:44 pm

So the KiPro mini will remote trigger by the presence of TC in the SDI input signal, but will not read the SDI trigger info sent by many cameras, including the Sony F-3. Translation, in order to use the KiPro mini, you MUST have an SxS card in the camera in order to start/stop the KiPro remotely.

Also, I can't find in the manual-or in the menus, how do you enable a roll-over recording from card slot A to B to allow continuous recording.

Richard Boghosian
Bogh AV Productions

FCP 7.03 MacPro 8Gb ram Matrox MXO 2 Max


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gary adcock
Re: KiPro Mini rec trigger and continuous record
on Mar 18, 2011 at 2:32:15 pm

[Richard Boghosian] "but will not read the SDI trigger info sent by many cameras, including the Sony F-3"

FIrst
the start stop pulse in the F3 is NOT active by default, it must be turned on.


" in order to use the KiPro mini, you MUST have an SxS card in the camera in order to start/stop the KiPro remotely."

Correct
that is the same functionality as Arri's Alexa and many other cameras, I do not understand the nature of your complaints.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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Will Salley
Re: KiPro Mini rec trigger and continuous record
on Mar 18, 2011 at 3:16:41 pm

[gary adcock] " I do not understand the nature of your complaints."

I do, He wants functionality that SHOULD be there, but is not.

Mac Pro 2x2.8 Quadcore - 10.6.3 - QT 7.6.3 - 22 GB RAM - nvidia8800GT - SATA internal & external storage - Blackmagic Multibridge Pro - Open GL 1.5.10 - Wacom Intous2 tablet - AJA io
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Richard Boghosian
Re: KiPro Mini rec trigger and continuous record
on Mar 18, 2011 at 5:59:46 pm

Thanks Will. And Gary, it's not a complaint, it's just an observation-that some others might like to be aware of before they assume that such features are included in the initial firmware release. I'm sure AJA will catch up at some point.

Richard Boghosian
Bogh AV Productions

FCP 7.03 MacPro 8Gb ram Matrox MXO 2 Max


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AJA Sales Department
Re: KiPro Mini rec trigger and continuous record
on Mar 18, 2011 at 8:36:50 pm

Detailed information regarding Ki Pro Mini features and operation can be obtained from the product's operation manual. This document is freely available from the AJA website at:
http://www.aja.com/pdf/support/AJA_Ki_Pro_Mini_Manual.pdf

Both of the features mentioned in this thread are not promised features of the device. These feature requests will be passed on to product management for development consideration. Thank you for your feedback.

If you have questions that you feel are not answered by the operational manual for the product, don't hesitate to contact AJA directly via phone or email.

--
AJA Video Systems
+1 (530) 274-2048 Intl.
(800) 251-4224 US
sales@aja.com


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John Heagy
Re: KiPro Mini rec trigger and continuous record
on Mar 19, 2011 at 12:57:42 am

While we're in the feature request mode: Please enable the Lanc port on both the KiPro and Mini and include record start/stop input and output so third party start/stop remotes with feedback can be devised.

Ideally a Lanc start/stop would take a signal from the camera's on board start/stop and convert it to Lanc protocol to start the KiPro. The KiPro would send record status back and light an LED that could be mounted on the camera eye piece. Considering camera men don't have eyes in the back of there heads this seems a near necessity for doubt free operation.

Thanks
John Heagy


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gary adcock
Re: KiPro Mini rec trigger and continuous record
on Mar 19, 2011 at 8:14:00 pm

[Will Salley] "[gary adcock] " I do not understand the nature of your complaints."
I do, He wants functionality that SHOULD be there, but is not."



What functionality that is not there? That you cannot trigger a start stop without media in the F3 camera? Name me a camera that has internal recording that does not require media inserted to function correctly, and that is the case with any of the Sony Tapeless cameras in the EX and XDCam lines that I can think of.

I think it seems you are confusing the KiPros ability as waning instead of functionality of the camera itself, but those are 2 distinctly different things.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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Ron Pestes
Re: KiPro Mini rec trigger and continuous record
on Mar 20, 2011 at 8:48:45 pm

Also, you will not be getting the option of spanning cards because the mini has to close a file before it can start recording to the second card. That means you will have to always manually change the slot before you can record to the second card.

Apple Certified Master Pro FCS 2
Sony EX-3
MacBook Pro


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Darren Abate
Re: KiPro Mini rec trigger and continuous record
on Mar 23, 2011 at 11:32:53 pm

So... (I'm sorry if this sounds dumb, but) If the KPM has to close the file before you can switch card slots, what's the point of having two card slots anyway?

---------------------------
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Ron Pestes
Re: KiPro Mini rec trigger and continuous record
on Mar 24, 2011 at 12:22:11 am

It does make it a little faster to change cards if you just have to press stop, switch slots and press play again. Still, it would be much better if it would span.

Apple Certified Master Pro FCS 2
Sony EX-3
MacBook Pro


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Darren Abate
Re: KiPro Mini rec trigger and continuous record
on Mar 24, 2011 at 1:55:34 am

Heck, I could even do without spanning if the unit could automatically rollover to the next card while closing the file on the first.


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Kevin Young
Re: KiPro Mini rec trigger and continuous record
on May 10, 2011 at 8:46:55 pm

I was ready to buy two of these to mount on my two Canon XLH1s until I found out I would have to stop recording to switch cards. Good thing Sound Device has a nice product that I can buy, it records to a SSD


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Marc Colemont
Re: KiPro Mini rec trigger and continuous record
on Mar 26, 2011 at 9:04:06 am

I have 4 AJA KiPro's for ISO recording, and for my run&gun camera for events was capturing in JVC MPEG2 through Focus Enhancenments FireWire recording..
To align my workflow, and to make editing easier I sold my Focus Enhancement MD-HD100 to switch to AJA Ki Pro Mini. The MPEG2 vs Apple ProRess422 is a big improvement, simply love it.
But what I didn't realize was, that I would have to go back looking back for my old tapes (which I don't use for 4 years anymore!) to be able to get time-code rolling on the HD-SDI out. As the Camera otherwise doesn't see media to record on. Yes, It's camera related, nothing to do with AJA.
Therefore the FireWire port is missing on the KiPro Mini to achieve the same results I had before.
As the Focus equipment was communicating through the FireWire to the camera for triggering and viewfinder information.
It would be definatly a big help for many camera's if it was supported in maybe a future update on the KiPro Mini2? My JVC camera's have no LANC, so the Lens control input like on the KiPro has is also no alternative.
What I knew upfront was that I would lose the indication in the viewfinder that the external unit was attached/recording, and how much was left for storage.
I just wanted to explain Gary that It just feels strange I now have to go back to tapes, wear & tear my camera, to be able to record on the hi-tech KiPro Mini.
If JVC would bring out a firmware version which starts running time-code when the lens REC without tape-media would be the solution for my current setup. But I doubt they will do that.


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Darren Abate
Re: KiPro Mini rec trigger and continuous record
on Mar 26, 2011 at 9:08:24 am

One possible workaround is to set your TC to free run and just use the record button on the Ki Pro Mini. I know that's a hassle; is it worth saving the hours on your camera's deck?


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John Heagy
Re: KiPro Mini rec trigger and continuous record
on Mar 26, 2011 at 3:04:06 pm

I'm not a cameraman, but I'd think not knowing, definitively, that the unit is still recording would distract me and elicit momentary "pucker" moments when I don't see the comforting rec indication in the viewfinder. The obvious solution is a remote "rec" light mounted on the eye piece. This light should indicate the status of the KiPro and not the command sent to the KiPro. In other words; the indicator doesn't light until the KiPro actually starts rolling. If the KiPro stops for any reason, then the light goes out.

It's unfortunate that the Lens Tap port was not included in the Mini. It's still not enabled in the KiPro. I suppose not enough customers asked for it's activation, but then few KiPros where actually "strapped" to run and gun cameras... the Mini will be.

The devil is always in the details...

John Heagy


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: KiPro Mini rec trigger and continuous record
on Mar 26, 2011 at 3:59:21 pm

[John Heagy] "The obvious solution is a remote "rec" light mounted on the eye piece. This light should indicate the status of the KiPro and not the command sent to the KiPro. In other words; the indicator doesn't light until the KiPro actually starts rolling. If the KiPro stops for any reason, then the light goes out."

I guess we won't know until it ships but, wouldn't it be easier to send lanc control in to Ki, then out to camera to roll it? If Ki stops rolling, so will camera with signal sent from Ki? That way camera rec indicator will essentially act as Ki rec indicator.

Jeremy


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John Heagy
Re: KiPro Mini rec trigger and continuous record
on Mar 27, 2011 at 5:41:42 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "wouldn't it be easier to send lanc control in to Ki, then out to camera to roll it? If Ki stops rolling, so will camera with signal sent from Ki? That way camera rec indicator will essentially act as Ki rec indicator."

I've never used a LANC port, but since the jacks are labeled "LANC Loop" I'd think It would allow the cmd to "loop through" the KiPro to the camera and roll the camera indicating a "rec", even if the KiPro didn't roll due to a full CF... etc. One may need to "blind" the camera to the "go into record" cmd from the button and make it go into record on an "I am in record" output cmd from the KiPro, if it's even possible to do that with a LANC loop. I'd imagine the LANC Loop is designed to "daisy chain" multiple KiPros and trigger them via a single LANC controller.

Any LANC users that can speak to how devices work when "daisy chained"?

If the future implementation of the LANC loop includes the option to blank the "go into record" input cmd from the output, and instead generate an "I'm in record" output cmd that a given camera can understand, then great. Aja... make it so. Having said all that, I don't think LANC ports are common on professional cameras and would be case by case even on cameras that do. May be too complex regardless.

The TC Rec Arm option would work well to roll a KiPro in "Rec Run" so just a LANC response from the KiPro and a remote "rec" light is needed. This wouldn't work for TOD as TC is always there. A work around might be to use an ext TOD LTC generator, or TC output from the camera, set up so a camera start button switches the LTC stream to the LTC input of the Mini to start a record. The LANC could output rec status and light a remote indicator.

I suppose it's either a remote button, and possibly a viewfinder "rec", or a remote "rec" light, and possibly use the camera's own start stop button. I don't see a way to use both, unless some cameras have a pin out for remotely triggering the viewfinder "rec".

The bottom line in all these "options" is getting an "I'm in record" confidence output of some kind from the KiPro. Considering the LANC ports are currently not functioning, I would propose an option that simply has one of the LANC jacks output +5 volts if a recording is rolling and 0 volts if not. If designed to power an LED "rec" indicator directly... all the better! This record status cannot be a set and forget, it must be constantly monitored. It could be tied to the KiPro's Record button light I suppose.

Am I the only one that considers this a requirement for "run and gun" shooting? If not, please chime in! There seems to be a new compact ProRes recorder announced every week, and none of them have this feature. If Aja added this it would separate the KiPros from the pack.

Details... details...

Sorry for the length.

John Heagy


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Mark CC Knobil
Re: KiPro Mini rec trigger and continuous record
on May 4, 2011 at 8:18:19 pm

Hear Hear!
What docco shooter has not rolled when he thought he was stopped, and the heartbreaking reverse. Stuff happens out there. Big red lights would be appreciated.

=mark=

Mark Knobil
Pittsburgh? Pittsburgh!


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John Heagy
Re: KiPro Mini rec trigger and continuous record
on May 4, 2011 at 10:10:39 pm

[Mark CC Knobil] "Hear Hear!"

Thanks for chiming in Mark!

After speaking with Sound Devices at NAB I learned their PIX recorders LANC input supports simple contact closure (GPI) to start the recording, on the tip of the mini jack, and once in record outputs 5 volts on the sleeve with enough juice to power an LED.

Simple remote start with record confidence feedback... perfect!

John Heagy


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Mark CC Knobil
Re: KiPro Mini rec trigger and continuous record
on May 13, 2011 at 9:23:56 am

An easy way to have confidence that, in the thick of things, you are indeed rolling when you think you are ... would be WARNING TONES in the AUDIO monitor out. Beep for warning ... solid tone for stopped. Just like every broadcast camera out there.

Also, any hope for card spanning in future firmware? Would be huge.
Choices are coming, gotta keep up.

=mark=

Mark Knobil
Pittsburgh? Pittsburgh!


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