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KI Pro stops record with 10% left

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Kenyon Blower
KI Pro stops record with 10% left
on Feb 18, 2010 at 2:17:28 am

I purchased a KI Pro to replace a IO/HD and lap top system for digitizing the international version of the show I am currently editing. We are in 720 and the international needs to be in 1080. The system worked great except that with about 10 minutes left in the show, the KI pro stopped recording. It said 10% left on the display and would not record any further. Luckily, we were still in the test mode of the new system and we were dual recording using the IO/HD. Is this a safety setup so as not to record to the last bit.

We can't trust the system until the 500gb drives come out. It will work during pre-pro to digitize clips for features we are editing. It worked great for that. Set up a producer or AD with the Ki-pro and a tape deck. They could log field tapes and digitize at the same time, just don't tell the DGA.



Kenyon Blower
Location Edit. LLC
Dual FCP On-location Editing
with KONA 3, IO-HD, KI Pro
D5, DVCPRO-HD, Digi-Beta
locationedit.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: KI Pro stops record with 10% left
on Feb 18, 2010 at 2:47:17 am

Just curious, but was this from a long record or where you starting/stopping?


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Kenyon Blower
Re: KI Pro stops record with 10% left
on Feb 18, 2010 at 4:48:32 am

I was starting & stopping so as not to have one large clip to cut up.

Kenyon Blower
Location Edit. LLC
Dual FCP On-location Editing
with KONA 3, IO-HD, KI Pro
D5, DVCPRO-HD, Digi-Beta
locationedit.com


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gary adcock
Re: KI Pro stops record with 10% left
on Feb 18, 2010 at 1:42:35 pm

[Kenyon Blower] " The system worked great except that with about 10 minutes left in the show, the KI pro stopped recording. It said 10% left on the display and would not record any further."

That is correct, the unit is not designed to work until full, it will auto shut down when there is less than 10% of the active volume left, this is designed as a safety measure and is common in every disk based recorder I have worked with. (have you ever noted this limitation with scratch disks is within FCP also)

My question is why? if you are starting and stopping the recording process, why not swap out of drive while you are doing that, I have a good deal of practice and I can easily swap a drive over a commercial break.

What kind of show are you recording and how? I have now done a couple of large multicam shoots (6-10 cameras) on 3 hr concerts and not run out of room on my setups working with ProRes(non-hq) and all were done at 1080 60i.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640


http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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Michael Craven
Re: KI Pro stops record with 10% left
on Feb 18, 2010 at 4:08:20 pm

[gary adcock] "it will auto shut down when there is less than 10% of the active volume left"

That seems to make sense. Is the actual, usable drive space listed anywhere for the AJA 250GB drive? This would come in handy for future reference when I only have 1 250GB cartridge and I'm using AJA's data rate calc to figure out how much record time I have. I wouldn't want to overshoot.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: KI Pro stops record with 10% left
on Feb 18, 2010 at 4:44:49 pm

Gary pretty much answered my question which is why I asked. As of right now, the Express34 cards aren't operational, so there's no roll over function. I would simply buy another $250 dollar 250GB drive.

http://www.markertek.com/Computer-Related/RAM-Computer-Memory/AJA-Video/KI-...

Jeremy


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Michael Craven
Re: KI Pro stops record with 10% left
on Feb 18, 2010 at 4:58:55 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I would simply buy another $250 dollar 250GB drive."

Copy that, but either way I'd like to know what the actual recording capacity of the drive is with the 10% buffer. I guess I could just figure it at 200GB to be safe.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: KI Pro stops record with 10% left
on Feb 18, 2010 at 5:31:11 pm

[Michael Craven] "I guess I could just figure it at 200GB to be safe."

Or just knock 10% off the posted available space.

How much footage did you have when it wouldn't go over 10%. That should be your ballpark.

Jeremy



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Michael Craven
Re: KI Pro stops record with 10% left
on Feb 18, 2010 at 5:39:21 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Or just knock 10% off the posted available space"

Yea, that was my question. Where is that posted? I don't own a KiPro so I can't pop in a drive and check it. I've never recorded long enough to encounter the 10% limit, but for future reference I'd like to know the correct amount of usable space so I can calculate my record time properly. That would be one devastating "gotcha" in a live event situation.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: KI Pro stops record with 10% left
on Feb 18, 2010 at 5:47:20 pm

[Michael Craven] "Where is that posted?"

Right on the front if the KiPro when it's on.

It'll say something like D1, 77%.

Here's a pic from the Transport Controls web interface.



Jeremy


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Michael Craven
Re: KI Pro stops record with 10% left
on Feb 18, 2010 at 6:31:52 pm

No, I understand that part. I'm talking about an actual number, like 234GB (for instance), of actual recording space on a 250GB drive. Until I know the actual number I'm just going to use 200GB in my calculations. That should keep me more than safe.
Thanks,
Mike


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: KI Pro stops record with 10% left
on Feb 18, 2010 at 6:35:59 pm

If you are on Snow Leopard, 250GBs is 250GBs due to the base10 count.

So less 10% that would be 225 Gigs.


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gary adcock
Re: KI Pro stops record with 10% left
on Feb 19, 2010 at 2:45:53 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "If you are on Snow Leopard, 250GBs is 250GBs due to the base10 count.
So less 10% that would be 225 Gigs.
"


ah, the KiPro is NOT running Snow Leopard, and since it formats drives based on its own operating system, that would be a bad idea, since that number {225GB} does not take any of the hardware related file structure and directories into account which reduce that available amount of space even farther.

These are all hard drive/ scratch disk basic issues. The reality of how hard dives work and function does not change because that drive is no longer attached to your mac. These drives follow the same rules as those on your edit system do.

You should NEVER fill a hard drive or drives to more than 80% of the listed volume size !!!NEVER!!! This can cause directory structure errors and temp file failures as the files are written over in attempt to handle the excess data.
Not to mention that virtually all disk drives slow in read/ write speed as the drive gets closer to the maximum amount of data it can hold.





gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640


http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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Jeremy Garchow
Re: KI Pro stops record with 10% left
on Feb 20, 2010 at 2:18:49 am

[gary adcock] "ah, the KiPro is NOT running Snow Leopard"

What, you're sh*tting me? ;)

Still, when plugging the drive in to Snow Leopard, it still shows up as 250GBs. I don't see why you can't just look at the front of the Ki. It's so much less math. :P







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gary adcock
Re: KI Pro stops record with 10% left
on Feb 19, 2010 at 2:32:07 pm

[Michael Craven] "Copy that, but either way I'd like to know what the actual recording capacity of the drive is with the 10% buffer. I guess I could just figure it at 200GB to be sa"

Good idea and that is about the number I use

at minimum at least 10% of the space is taken up by the directory and that structure varies depending on how many, and what types of files are on the drive.

My rule for ALL hard disk drives is to never fill them to more that 80%, so that 200G volume level is almost exactly what I go for. This is as much a performance issue as it is a "health and safety" issue.
(my health and the contents safety)

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640


http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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Alex Desrial
Re: KI Pro stops record with 10% left
on Feb 20, 2010 at 6:26:23 pm

JA and GA is correct.

Just by chance i have been specialized in video storage and i also have KiPro ;)

A drive whether a single drive or RAID storage will drop performance when the capacity hit 80 %. In this case I am more conservative than Gary, i make a rule my self for 70 % , in order to eliminate problems, mainly for those who works with HD material.

The way KiPro record to the drive is the same like you capture video to FCP storage. When there is no sufficient bandwith available it just can not capture or drop frame. With KiPro, it can not record.

Other reason to have 70 % with KiPro is that, sometimes ( when in a rush) customers do directly edit on field with the macbook pro. Having 30 % empty space of the Ki storage connected to MBPro via FW800 will allow them to work without drop frame issue . I can not i imagine if it only has 10 % empty space.























Alex Desrial
MediaIntegra - Jakarta


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gary adcock
Re: KI Pro stops record with 10% left
on Feb 20, 2010 at 7:15:55 pm

[Alex Desrial] "Just by chance i have been specialized in video storage and i also have KiPro ;) "

Same here, and Its no secret that I have a couple KiPro's too.

"i make a rule my self for 70 % , in order to eliminate problems, mainly for those who works with HD material."

IMHO that would depend on the type of drive, IDE definitely, however I am comfortable with the current generations of SATA drives- so that i feel my number (80% capacity) is acceptable for the vast majority of drive users, not just for those working from the KiPro's drive modules.

What we do not mention is that not all drives are equal. That $99/88€ hard drive are as much a commodity on the market as coffemakers and toasters. One should not expect the same the same from a Yugo as they would a Mercedes-Benz, and I believe that hard drives are no different. What other device do we work with daily that comes with a failure rating as part of the specs? ( MTBF = mean time between failure).





gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640


http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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Gary Roberts
Re: KI Pro stops record with 10% left
on Sep 27, 2011 at 5:31:18 pm

To answer the question posted earlier, it actually is quite close to 10% when it stops. We have the 500GB Drive, and it stopped with 52.4 GB left on it. We actually didn't know it was going to do that, and we were recording a live event. Oh well, now we know.


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